UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

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blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

233 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
"and Im sure everyone would agree would be a disaster in government,"

So you are so blindly tied to the current political institution that the currant crop [:hehe] can do no wrong then?
Don't be silly.
I'm referring to the fact that they haven't a clue what they are doing and have no policies on anything and have no clear idea how they will implement the one policy they do have. On balance, even if you really really like Nigel, you have to admit it doesn't inspire confidence.

Or maybe I am wrong? Feel free to correct me and discuss their fiscal policies, and who would be their chancellor of the Exchequer? Perhaps explain their foreign policies and how they would benefit us?
Or how, exactly, they are going to fix the NHS as I am sure you'll agree that stopping nasty foreigners isn't the be-all and end-all

Edited by blindswelledrat on Friday 17th October 10:49

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

263 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
tangerine_sedge said:
The NHS is so broken by the influx of foreigners freeloading, that on Tuesday, I managed to phone my local surgery at 14:00, get an appointment with the doctor for 17:10 and have my diagnosis and medicine from the local pharmacy by 18:00. All these foreigners coming here and not impacting our services much at all!

UKIP policies are the policies of fear. If you keep on repeating this rubbish, then it eventually becomes normalised.

Britain on the whole is not 'broken'. Services are not stretched due to an influx of foreigners, but due generally to the austerity budget cuts. Still, it's easier to lay the blame on 'the foreigners', rather than accept it's because we all had a party for the last 15 years, and now can't face the hangover.

P.S. I agree with Diane Abbot, I think this is latent racism that is at the heart of the rise of UKIP. The party leaders can keep on repeating it's about "controlled immigration", but I suggest the rank and file just see it as "England for the English".
The magnificent NHS. From cradle to grave. Well almost...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshir...

Chief executive Anthony Marsh said the trust was "very sorry for what happened" and had started a "thorough investigation".

Although the service apologised, it refused to confirm the claims or say exactly what it was apologising for.

"However, Dr Marsh said the ambulance service was "working with the family and everyone who responded to the patient".

An EEAST spokesman confirmed the investigation involved "the transportation of a deceased patient", but said he could not comment further as inquiries were ongoing.

Sir Graham Bright, the police and crime commissioner for Cambridgeshire said the incident "sounds a fairly disgraceful thing to have happened".

"Obviously it's got to be investigated and whoever is responsible for that has got to be held to account." he said.

The claims were published in the Wisbech Standard after a "whistleblower" approached the newspaper.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

233 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Oh goody, another anecdote.

Maybe the NHS is broken after all.
We haven't had any nasty foreign criminal anecdotes for a while. THey are usually fun.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

209 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
A question to UKIP followers/ anti-Europe people.
Given that UKIP have no real policies and Im sure everyone would agree would be a disaster in government, your vote would be an anti-Europe vote and nothing more.
If there was a referendum tomorrow and we voted to stay in Europe, would you still follow UKIP, and if so-why?
I don't believe they have no real policies, but whether they do or don't, being members of the EU trumps any of that. I would happily vote for Gordon Brown if I could believe that he honestly wanted to get the UK out of the EU.

ETA: If there was a referendum tomorrow and we voted to stay in, I would follow UKIP if I believed it was a stitch up (like in the 70's). If I believed it was reasonably fair and that the UK population genuinely wanted to remain in the EU, I would accept that I am at odds with the majority and think about something else instead.

Edited by Esseesse on Friday 17th October 10:56

JagLover

42,453 posts

236 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
A question to UKIP followers/ anti-Europe people.
Given that UKIP have no real policies and Im sure everyone would agree would be a disaster in government, your vote would be an anti-Europe vote and nothing more.
If there was a referendum tomorrow and we voted to stay in Europe, would you still follow UKIP, and if so-why?
Someone has posted a (long) list of their policies.

Please tell us with which ones you disagree.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

263 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
Oh goody, another anecdote.

Maybe the NHS is broken after all.
We haven't had any nasty foreign criminal anecdotes for a while. THey are usually fun.
Well everyone else can see a problem, why can't you scratchchin

Scuffers

20,887 posts

275 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
tangerine_sedge said:
The point is, that UKIP keep on spouting "broken NHS" and "controlled immmigration", but it is not broken (evidenced by my example), and it is not solely the fault of immigration either (given the list of things you state). Still UKIP keep on repeating the untruths as if they are fact.
Actually, if you listen, they talk about a lot.of things...

The one recurring theme though is EU rules/control, and bow this impacts on almost every area of.policy.

What then happens is the lazy media spin it up as all about immigration.

That said, to attempt to claim that mass unregulated immigration is not a huge problem is just pathetic.

Zod

35,295 posts

259 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Given that none of you was prepared to engage with my criticisms of a selection of UKIP policies, why should bsr bother?

don4l

10,058 posts

177 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
Rubbish. You think UKIP has 51% of the vote nationwide?
No.

All I know is that they got 51% of the actual votes that were cast in the recent by-elections. That was more than the combined votes for the Tories, Labour, LibDems, Greens and independents. You must admit that this was an awesome achievment.

Their nationwide support is probably closer to 25% at the moment. However, many people support their policies, but like you, think that a UKIP vote would be a wasted vote.

Our task is to convince people that a UKIP vote can actually result in a UKIP MP. Last week's elections have helped. Another defection, or two, will also help.

JagLover

42,453 posts

236 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
Given that none of you was prepared to engage with my criticisms of a selection of UKIP policies, why should bsr bother?
Sorry I didn't see that Zod. What page was that on?

anonymous-user

55 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
don4l said:
Another defection, or two, will also help.
Don't you mean another successful by-election? A defection on its own, without a by-election to follow it, doesn't say anything about you you get if you vote UKIP.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

233 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
Well everyone else can see a problem, why can't you scratchchin
Well firstly, even if you're right I am merely making the point that if an organisation treats 30 million people per year - an anecdote of a single bad thing is ridiculous. 100 single anecdotes of bad things are ridiculous. 1000 single anecdotes are ridiculous. In every huge organisation, in every country throughout history many bad things happen regardless of the quality of the organisation. Very basic maths/probabilities.
What your silly anecdote actually "proved" was that at least 1 in 30 million people's experiences of the NHS is bad. Do you honestly see that as relevant?

On to your actual question- is there a problem? In my lifetime the NHS has always been labelled as a 'problem' for every Government and it has been at the centre of every party's manifesto for every election. It is a huge undertaking that sucks up a huge amount of money and whoever is in Government has to balance how much money to throw at it to improve it. In order to make it perfect I would imagine they would have to spend double or treble on it if they want to try and eliminate single anecdotes giving excited tabloid readers erections. And whoever gets into power, they will never have the kind of money to do that. SO any party (and this applies to all of them) who claims they are going to 'fix' it are either complete liars or complete fantasists, and anyone who believes there is a magic wand that can be waved and something as minor as reducing immigration is going to transform it is just not capable of assessing available information


Edited by blindswelledrat on Friday 17th October 11:15

Zod

35,295 posts

259 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Zod said:
Given that none of you was prepared to engage with my criticisms of a selection of UKIP policies, why should bsr bother?
Sorry I didn't see that Zod. What page was that on?
Page 28. Busy week on this thread!

FiF

44,144 posts

252 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
A question to UKIP followers/ anti-Europe people.
Given that UKIP have no real policies and Im sure everyone would agree would be a disaster in government, your vote would be an anti-Europe vote and nothing more.
If there was a referendum tomorrow and we voted to stay in Europe, would you still follow UKIP, and if so-why?
I'll attempt to answer the part of the question which isn't loaded.

As said previously, as you know BSR, the in/out question is a difficult one that I have thought about, including how we would exit, and on balance am in favour of out.

Again as said previously, in the event of an in vote then the democratic process would be accepted and would move on. Just like in the 70s.

That prompts the question well if moved on in the 70s why are we still arguing. Well the problem is that in the 70s we were clearly lied to. A generation or maybe two later the case needs to be re examined. Even Blair said the case needs to be made once a generation.

If the case is made and it's a valid one then a vote for in is appropriate. If the case isn't proven satisfactorily imo but there's still a vote for in, then it's as above, STFU and move on.

As for UKIP can't answer for them and their supporters but personally will continue to vote based on personal opinions over policies presented as opposed to following a tribe. Last time it was an independent for me.

Hope that answers your question reasonably and without rancour.

All the best.

don4l

10,058 posts

177 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
don4l said:
Another defection, or two, will also help.
Don't you mean another successful by-election? A defection on its own, without a by-election to follow it, doesn't say anything about you you get if you vote UKIP.
Well, I think that Reckless will win. After that, I'm not sure that any defections will result in by-elections (because we are getting so close to the next General election).

Defections on their own will help. The more MP's that we have going into the election, the more credibility we will have.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

209 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
Given that none of you was prepared to engage with my criticisms of a selection of UKIP policies, why should bsr bother?
I have engaged in a number of criticisms from a number of people. I mostly have been ignored which suggests to me you had nothing of merit to reply with but cannot concede that there is something in the broadly UKIP position. I cba really to continue to have a one sided debate, debating anything is worthless if people are unwilling to reconsider and question their own positions. Quite close to a /thread for me, might be worth revisiting after the Reckless vote.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

233 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Perfectly reasonable answer, FiF. I know your stance from previous and it's a sensible point of view.
THis was aimed less at you, it was just noticing a striking resemblance between this thread and the Scottish independence one, and how the vote doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference to the people who were pro independence.

The 70's was before my time- what happened then and what were the lies?

Zod

35,295 posts

259 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Zod said:
Given that none of you was prepared to engage with my criticisms of a selection of UKIP policies, why should bsr bother?
I have engaged in a number of criticisms from a number of people. I mostly have been ignored which suggests to me you had nothing of merit to reply with but cannot concede that there is something in the broadly UKIP position. I cba really to continue to have a one sided debate, debating anything is worthless if people are unwilling to reconsider and question their own positions. Quite close to a /thread for me, might be worth revisiting after the Reckless vote.
Weak cop-out.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

233 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Someone has posted a (long) list of their policies.
Please tell us with which ones you disagree.
I don't know about specifics (because I can't remember seeing any?) but lots of the sound-bite policies I have seen are actually common sense but simultaneously meaningless because they try to make things black and white for the lowest common demonator when the subjects they discuss are not black and white.

SO I could stand up tomorrow and say

"I am running for Government, here is what I will do
1)Mend the NHS
2)Stop bad foreigners coming here and just accept good ones
3)Stop all tax for anyone under £20k earnings
4)GIve us the best defence system in the world
5) ELiminate crime completely"

etc etc
Just because I say things you like, it doesn't mean I am capable of running a government.

JagLover

42,453 posts

236 months

Friday 17th October 2014
quotequote all
BGARK said:
The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.

What a UKIP Government will do.

Protecting jobs and increasing prosperity

- We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness.

– We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage.

– UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.

– We would reoccupy the UK’s vacant seat at the World Trade Organisation, ensuring that we continue to enjoy ‘most favoured nation’ status in trade with the EU, as is required under WTO rules.

Repairing the UK Economy

– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.

– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.

– UKIP will set up a Treasury Commission to design a turnover tax to ensure big businesses pay a minimum floor rate of tax as a proportion of their UK turnover.

Reducing debts we leave to our grandchildren

– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.

– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa, prioritising disaster relief and schemes which provide water and inoculation against preventable diseases.

– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project which is uneconomical and unjustified.

– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.

– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.

– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending and give devolved parliaments and assemblies further tax powers to compensate.

Prioritising Education and Skills

– UKIP will introduce an option for students to take an Apprenticeship Qualification instead of four non-core GCSEs which can be continued at A-Level. Students can take up apprenticeships in jobs with certified professionals qualified to grade the progress of the student.

– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

– UKIP will scrap the target of 50% of school leavers going to university.

– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students.

– UKIP supports the principle of Free Schools that are open to the whole community and uphold British values.

– Existing schools will be allowed to apply to become grammar schools and select according to ability and aptitude. Selection ages will be flexible and determined by the school in consultation with the local authority.

– Schools will be investigated by OFSTED on the presentation of a petition to the Department for Education signed by 25% of parents or governors.

Honouring the Military Covenant

– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.

– UKIP will guarantee those who have served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of 12 years a job in the police force, prison service or border force

– UKIP will change the points system for social housing to give priority to ex-service men and women and those returning from active service.

– A Veterans Department will bring together all veterans services to ensure servicemen and women get the after-service care they deserve.

– Veterans are to receive a Veterans’ Service Card to ensure they are fast tracked for mental health care and services, if needed.

– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.

– UKIP supports a National Service Medal for all those who have served in the armed forces.

The National Health Service

– UKIP will ensure the NHS is free at the point of delivery and time of need for all UK residents.

– We will stop further use of PFI in the NHS and encourage local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts early where this is affordable.

– We will ensure that GPs’ surgeries are open at least one evening per week, where there is demand for it.

– UKIP opposes plans to charge patients for visiting their GP.

–We will ensure that visitors to the UK, and migrants until they have paid NI for five years, have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa. UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.

– We will replace Monitor and the Care Quality Commission with elected county health boards to be more responsive scrutineers of local health services. These will be able to inspect health services and take evidence from whistle-blowers.

– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.

– We will ensure foreign health service professionals coming to work in the NHS are properly qualified and can speak English to a standard acceptable to the profession.

– UKIP will amend working time rules to give trainee doctors, surgeons and medics the proper environment to train and practise.

– There will be a duty on all health service staff to report low standards of care.

Controlling and managing our borders

– UKIP recognises the benefits of limited, controlled immigration.

– UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.

– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.

– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years and will only be eligible for permanent residence after ten years.

– UKIP will reinstate the primary purpose rule for bringing foreign spouses and children to the UK.

– UKIP will not offer an amnesty for illegal immigrants or those gaining British passports through fraud.

– UKIP will return to the principles of the UN Convention of Refugees which serves to protect the most vulnerable.

Foreign Aid

– UKIP will target foreign aid at healthcare initiatives, inoculations against preventable diseases and clean water programmes with a much-reduced aid budget administered by the Foreign Office.

– British organisations will be offered the contracts to deliver the remaining aid following removal of the EU Procurement Directive.

Energy

– UKIP will repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18bn a year.

– UKIP supports a diverse energy market including coal, nuclear, shale gas, geo-thermal, tidal, solar, conventional gas and oil.

– We will scrap the Large Combustion Plant Directive and encourage the re-development of British power stations, as well as industrial units providing on-site power generation.

– UKIP supports the development of shale gas with proper safeguards for the local environment. Community Improvement Levy money from the development of shale gas fields will be earmarked for lower council taxes or community projects within the local authority being developed.

– There will be no new subsidies for wind farms and solar arrays.

– UKIP will abolish green taxes and charges in order to reduce fuel bills.

Agriculture and Fishing

– By leaving the EU, the UK will leave the Common Agricultural Policy. Outside the EU UKIP will institute a British Single Farm Payment for farms.

– UKIP will let the British parliament vote on GM foods.

– UKIP will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and reinstate British territorial waters.

– Foreign trawlers would have to apply for and purchase fishing permits to fish British waters when fish stocks have returned to sustainable levels.

– Food must be labelled to include the country of origin, method of production, method of slaughter, hormones and any genetic additives.

– UKIP will abolish the export of live animals for slaughter

Welfare and Childcare

– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax because it operates unfairly, penalising those who are unable to find alternative accommodation and taking insufficient account of the needs of families and the disabled.

– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only.

– UKIP will ensure there is an initial presumption of 50/50 shared parenting in child custody matters and grandparents will be given visitation rights.

– UKIP supports a simplified, streamlined welfare system and a benefit cap.

Transport

– We will scrap HS2.

– UKIP opposes tolls on public roads and will let existing contracts for running toll roads expire.

– UKIP will maintain pensioner bus passes.

– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc, before entry to the UK, in order to contribute to the upkeep of UK roads and any lost fuel duty.

– UKIP will ensure that speed cameras are used as a deterrent and not as a revenue raiser for local authorities.

Housing and planning

– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.

– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites. Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.

– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.

– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.

Democracy and the Constitution

– UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues.

– UKIP supports the recall of MPs as was originally promised in the Coalition Agreement, whereby 20% of the electorate in a constituency must sign a recall petition within eight weeks. The approval of MPs will not be required to initiate a recall petition.

– UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.

Law and Order

– UKIP will withdraw from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.

– UKIP will reverse the government’s opt-in to EU law and justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant and European Investigation Order. We will replace the EAW with appropriate bi-lateral agreements.

– UKIP will not give prisoners the vote.

– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court. Parole should be available for good behaviour on a case-by-case basis, not systematically.

– We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights. The interests of law-abiding citizens & victims will always take precedence over those of criminals.

Culture

– UKIP recognises and values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values, regardless of their ethnic or religious background.

– Official documents will be published in English and, where appropriate Welsh and Scots Gaelic.

– UKIP will ensure that the law is rigorously enforced in relation to ‘cultural’ practices which are illegal in Britain, such as forced marriages, FGM and so-called ‘honour killings’

– We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.

– UKIP will amend the smoking ban to give pubs and clubs the choice to open smoking rooms properly ventilated and separated from non-smoking areas.

– UKIP opposes ‘plain paper packaging’ for tobacco products and minimum pricing of alcohol.

Employment and Small Businesses

– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.

– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.

– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications

– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.

– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.

– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
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