Labour not to work on West Lothian question
Discussion
el stovey said:
It's a non issue stoked up by Cameron to make Labour appear to be anti English. I couldn't care less if Scottish MPs vote on "English issues" (whatever they are). Although it sounds simple, it's a very complex issue with funding coming from a UK pot not an English one. We are saying English MPs only are able to vote on issues involving the entire UK budget.
Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
Do you not see any inequality that Scottish MPs vote on the cost of say a university education in England, whilst English MPs have absolutely no say over tuition fees north of the border. Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
The optics are terrible, If we have devolution for Scotland, then English taxpayers are surely correct to demand equal treatment.
On the boundary changes thing, why don't we just weight an MPs vote to reflect the number of people he is representing? Would be much easier than f
king about with boundaries, but would also make it easier to move boundaries if there was a genuine need because it wouldn't affect the power of any particular vote.
king about with boundaries, but would also make it easier to move boundaries if there was a genuine need because it wouldn't affect the power of any particular vote.Gargamel said:
el stovey said:
It's a non issue stoked up by Cameron to make Labour appear to be anti English. I couldn't care less if Scottish MPs vote on "English issues" (whatever they are). Although it sounds simple, it's a very complex issue with funding coming from a UK pot not an English one. We are saying English MPs only are able to vote on issues involving the entire UK budget.
Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
Do you not see any inequality that Scottish MPs vote on the cost of say a university education in England, whilst English MPs have absolutely no say over tuition fees north of the border. Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
The optics are terrible, If we have devolution for Scotland, then English taxpayers are surely correct to demand equal treatment.
Gargamel said:
el stovey said:
It's a non issue stoked up by Cameron to make Labour appear to be anti English. I couldn't care less if Scottish MPs vote on "English issues" (whatever they are). Although it sounds simple, it's a very complex issue with funding coming from a UK pot not an English one. We are saying English MPs only are able to vote on issues involving the entire UK budget.
Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
Do you not see any inequality that Scottish MPs vote on the cost of say a university education in England, whilst English MPs have absolutely no say over tuition fees north of the border. Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.
The optics are terrible, If we have devolution for Scotland, then English taxpayers are surely correct to demand equal treatment.
McWigglebum4th said:
One small point
in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament
remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair
Not given an equal constituency population it wouldn't. Labour jerry-rigged the electoral boundaries after being fairly elected in 97.in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament
remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair
England voted Conservative in 2005.
LucreLout said:
McWigglebum4th said:
One small point
in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament
remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair
Not given an equal constituency population it wouldn't. Labour jerry-rigged the electoral boundaries after being fairly elected in 97.in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair
in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament
remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair
England voted Conservative in 2005.
Don't blame scotland
Zod said:
You can't separate this from the West Lothian question. It's no good Labour bleating that it's gerrymandering. If they had enough English seats they wouldn't have any objection.
It's worse for Labour than they are pretending. Wales too would have the same devolved power, so Labour would be shy more than 40 seats when it comes to levels of taxation in England. They literally couldn't bankrupt the country going forward because the English would never vote through the budget.McWigglebum4th said:
Blame your idiot leaders
Don't blame scotland
You'll find they're your idiot leaders, not ours, which is rather the point.Don't blame scotland
Alex Salmond was the finest politician of his era. Labour have done themselves up like a kipper, and now the scent of democracy is in the air they're backpedaling furiously.
LucreLout said:
loafer123 said:
Absolutely. Labour are frantically saying that the English want powers devolved more locally, and not changed in Parliament.
The main problem with that assertion is that Labour did a referendum on just such a proposal and it was rejected as people could see what a costly waste it would be.
No matter what political hue you are, this is quite simple.
The people who represent you should be the ones who vote on laws which affect you.
Even simpler that means English Votes for English Laws.
I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.The main problem with that assertion is that Labour did a referendum on just such a proposal and it was rejected as people could see what a costly waste it would be.
No matter what political hue you are, this is quite simple.
The people who represent you should be the ones who vote on laws which affect you.
Even simpler that means English Votes for English Laws.
The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.
IrateNinja said:
Is it even worth having a debate over?
21 votes out of more than 3000 since 1997 would have gone differently if Scottish MPs’ votes hadn’t been counted
If it makes that little difference, why are Labour so against it?21 votes out of more than 3000 since 1997 would have gone differently if Scottish MPs’ votes hadn’t been counted
Zigster said:
If it makes that little difference, why are Labour so against it?
Exactly.If we're going to have a sense of logic and fairness, then it makes sense that whatever powers are devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also reserved for English MPs to decide upon for England. No cherry picking, no one way transactions.
And while we're at it, let's rip up the Barnett formula. If you want control over what you spend money on that's fine. But as soon as that money includes large chunks of subsidy, you should be losing your degree of control.
CrutyRammers said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Blame your idiot leaders
Don't blame scotland
Well, the idiot leaders at the time were Scottish Don't blame scotland
MarshPhantom said:
So Labour voters want Labour to have no power?
You can't call yourself a Geordie and accept Scottish rule. You just can't. Nor can the mackems, sand dancers, monkey hangers, or pink panthers. Etc etcAn English vote may be equal to a Scots vote, but it must never be subservient to it.
Matters not what labour think as Milliband will be a one term government then it'll get changed to EVEL anyway.
The problem is that Westminster is the UK parliament. If you want English votes for English matters, have your own assembly to sort it out and leave westminister for the rest of uk only matters. You cannot have Westminster for both English and uk matters as that's a rather monopolistic situation to be in. Why not have the English assembly in Newcastle, Manchester, Brum or Sheffield for example?
arp1 said:
The problem is that Westminster is the UK parliament. If you want English votes for English matters, have your own assembly to sort it out and leave westminister for the rest of uk only matters. You cannot have Westminster for both English and uk matters as that's a rather monopolistic situation to be in. Why not have the English assembly in Newcastle, Manchester, Brum or Sheffield for example?
You want to spend more money on new buildings and people to man them, wonderful, why can't the Scottish MP's just not vote on matters concerning the rest of the UK.PRTVR said:
arp1 said:
The problem is that Westminster is the UK parliament. If you want English votes for English matters, have your own assembly to sort it out and leave westminister for the rest of uk only matters. You cannot have Westminster for both English and uk matters as that's a rather monopolistic situation to be in. Why not have the English assembly in Newcastle, Manchester, Brum or Sheffield for example?
You want to spend more money on new buildings and people to man them, wonderful, why can't the Scottish MP's just not vote on matters concerning the rest of the UK.Just make Fridays the England day in Westminster.
Esseesse said:
PRTVR said:
arp1 said:
The problem is that Westminster is the UK parliament. If you want English votes for English matters, have your own assembly to sort it out and leave westminister for the rest of uk only matters. You cannot have Westminster for both English and uk matters as that's a rather monopolistic situation to be in. Why not have the English assembly in Newcastle, Manchester, Brum or Sheffield for example?
You want to spend more money on new buildings and people to man them, wonderful, why can't the Scottish MP's just not vote on matters concerning the rest of the UK.Just make Fridays the England day in Westminster.
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