Labour not to work on West Lothian question

[gruffalo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29606220

It seems they have just realised, seems a little slow.

[jogon]

Dave needs to wake up to this quick as there was no blinder pulled it was merely blind panic as he faced becoming the PM that split the Union.

There will be no changes to Scottish MPs voting on UK matters and they will get all their new powers Dave promised them. That is fact.

Hague can spin it all he likes but they fked up good and proper on this one.

[gruffalo]

I am not so sure, Lib Dems seem to want to be involved, only Labour calling "a stitch up" as they will lose influence in England as a result.

Also the electorate seem to want the issue resolved if the comments on the BBC site are anything to go by.

[loafer123]

If Labour abstain from a vote, they'll lose, so they have to take part once the debate happens in the chamber and if they don't like the proposals, not taking part in the committee stages would make them look pretty stupid.

[Zod]

jogon said:

Dave needs to wake up to this quick as there was no blinder pulled it was merely blind panic as he faced becoming the PM that split the Union.

There will be no changes to Scottish MPs voting on UK matters and they will get all their new powers Dave promised them. That is fact.

Hague can spin it all he likes but they fked up good and proper on this one.

Er no, Labour fked up. Labour cannot win in this situation.

[loafer123]

Zod said:

Er no, Labour fked up. Labour cannot win in this situation.

Absolutely. Labour are frantically saying that the English want powers devolved more locally, and not changed in Parliament.

The main problem with that assertion is that Labour did a referendum on just such a proposal and it was rejected as people could see what a costly waste it would be.

No matter what political hue you are, this is quite simple.

The people who represent you should be the ones who vote on laws which affect you.

Even simpler that means English Votes for English Laws.

[LucreLout]

loafer123 said:

Absolutely. Labour are frantically saying that the English want powers devolved more locally, and not changed in Parliament.

The main problem with that assertion is that Labour did a referendum on just such a proposal and it was rejected as people could see what a costly waste it would be.

No matter what political hue you are, this is quite simple.

The people who represent you should be the ones who vote on laws which affect you.

Even simpler that means English Votes for English Laws.

I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.

The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.

[NicD]

LucreLout said:

I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.

The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.

+1

[McWigglebum4th]

LucreLout said:

I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.

The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.

One small point

in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair

in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair

in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament

remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair

[XJ Flyer]

LucreLout said:

loafer123 said:

Absolutely. Labour are frantically saying that the English want powers devolved more locally, and not changed in Parliament.

The main problem with that assertion is that Labour did a referendum on just such a proposal and it was rejected as people could see what a costly waste it would be.

No matter what political hue you are, this is quite simple.

The people who represent you should be the ones who vote on laws which affect you.

Even simpler that means English Votes for English Laws.

I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.

The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.

The reality is that what you're describing is the 'distribution' of the 'UK' budget.English votes in this case can only mean 'English cuts' to pay for continued 'UK spending' in Scotland and Wales.Labour can continue to vote through the distribution of the 'UK' budget using UK votes for what is actually UK issues in the form of the UK budget and its distribution,anyway.Which is why Scottish Labour Party didn't support the SNP for Scottish independence because they know that the Union gives them the power to vote on the UK budget and its distribution while independence wouldn't.

Make no mistake Cameron's agenda is just the same as that in the case of the EU in making us pay for his federalist ideology.He isn't in it for the benefit of England and the English.Which is why Brown and Cameron were on the same side in the Scottish independence referendum.Just as they will be on the same side in the case of an EU referendum.

[Bradgate]

I am an ex-Labour member, but even I can see that the party does not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue.

Scottish MPs should not vote on matters that do not directly affect Scotland. Everyone can see that, except, it seems, Ed Miliband.

[XJ Flyer]

Bradgate said:

I am an ex-Labour member, but even I can see that the party does not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue.

Scottish MPs should not vote on matters that do not directly affect Scotland. Everyone can see that, except, it seems, Ed Miliband.

The issue is that Cameron is trying to fool everyone into thinking that an English cabinet can decide the UK budget and its distribution to provide England with a better deal.When it can only decide how much it takes from it in the form of cuts not increases.Because any increase requires consent at UK level concerning the required change in the required resulting UK budget distribution.

In which case an English vote in this case can only mean a case of voting to accept less so that the Scottish can take more.Which seems to fit the deal made with Brown to hold the UK federation together.

[Zod]

XJ Flyer said:

Bradgate said:

I am an ex-Labour member, but even I can see that the party does not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue.

Scottish MPs should not vote on matters that do not directly affect Scotland. Everyone can see that, except, it seems, Ed Miliband.

The issue is that Cameron is trying to fool everyone into thinking that an English cabinet can decide the UK budget and its distribution to provide England with a better deal.When it can only decide how much it takes from it in the form of cuts not increases.Because any increase requires consent at UK level concerning the required change in the required resulting UK budget distribution.

In which case an English vote in this case can only mean a case of voting to accept less so that the Scottish can take more.Which seems to fit the deal made with Brown to hold the UK federation together.

Oh no, he's here. If you respond to him, we will end up with pages of drivel, just like every other thread on the subject.

[BlackLabel]

Labour will have a big problem in Scotland next year because the SNP are still riding the referendum wave - okay they lost but they picked up a st load of former Labour voters and opinion polls for next year suggest they have kept many of these voters.

Irrespective of how Labour play out this issue I think the days of them being guaranteed 2/3 of the Scottish Westminster seats are long gone. I'd bet that in 2015 London will return significantly more Labour MPs than Scotland does.

[davepoth]

McWigglebum4th said:

LucreLout said:

I don't think labour have any clue as to the strength of feeling on that issue in their Northern heartlands.

The next non-labour government will resolve the issue. They'll have too. It'll forever reduce the economic damage labour can inflict on England as they'll be unable to force through tax rises here to shore up Scotland and Wales. That is a very good thing all round.

One small point

in 1997 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair

in 2001 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been tony blair

in 2005 if every single person in scotland voted tory the PM would of been a hung parliament

remove the scottish MPs from the houses of parliament in 2005 then the PM would of been tony blair

Even though it's not made a difference recently, it does make a difference. A majority Tory government will do other things, including the boundary changes needed to make elections fairer (Currently, labour can win an overall majority with around 35% of the national vote due to the sizes of their constituencies).

[IrateNinja]

Is it even worth having a debate over?

21 votes out of more than 3000 since 1997 would have gone differently if Scottish MPs’ votes hadn’t been counted

[Martin4x4]

This is blatant gerrymandering by Cameron.

[anonymous-user]

IrateNinja said:

Is it even worth having a debate over?

21 votes out of more than 3000 since 1997 would have gone differently if Scottish MPs’ votes hadn’t been counted

It's a non issue stoked up by Cameron to make Labour appear to be anti English. I couldn't care less if Scottish MPs vote on "English issues" (whatever they are). Although it sounds simple, it's a very complex issue with funding coming from a UK pot not an English one. We are saying English MPs only are able to vote on issues involving the entire UK budget.

Cameron promised more devolved powers to Scotland in a panic before the referendum. Now he's trying to save face by attaching this to the west Lothian question. The two issues are seperate and unrelated.

[jogon]

Martin4x4 said:

This is blatant gerrymandering by Cameron.

Exactly. Trying to make the the most of a thoroughly unimpressive campaign supposedly saved at the last moment by Dave and his great power giveaway which he is now desperately trying to reneg to keep his job. While Miliband mulls over the difficult choice of fight UKIP in the North or SNP across the border.

Interesting times.

[jensenhealey2]

There are two points worth making on this issue. First whatever was promised by Broon Cameron and Milliband was always subject to the implie but very clear implication htat the further powers woul be devlved if the Uk Parliament passed the legislation to do so. They are of course morally bound to bring the legislation before Parliament and to whip it approriately, but it is up to Parliament wherther or not it is passed into law.

Second, there shoud be no problem over EVEL for any party. If Labour want to win a majority in England, then they have to put forward policies that will appeal to English voters. The fact that EVEL may not have made a significant difference in past is not a reason for continuing what is a contitutional outrage.