Do you really BELIEVE what politicians say?
Discussion
Good point the system needs a overhaul but where to start.?
Some good clips on you tube the way Nigel Farage takes on some of the politicians.They don't know how to handle him.Remember the German Schulz ex bookshop keeper took 9 years to pass his exams at the Lyceum School.Who elected him? I don't know we never had a vote.These muppets supposed to run the show they don't the people above them have control.
The majority of politicians twist the truth in our so called democracy.
Some good clips on you tube the way Nigel Farage takes on some of the politicians.They don't know how to handle him.Remember the German Schulz ex bookshop keeper took 9 years to pass his exams at the Lyceum School.Who elected him? I don't know we never had a vote.These muppets supposed to run the show they don't the people above them have control.
The majority of politicians twist the truth in our so called democracy.
I'd love to hear peoples ideas on where to start too.
I've seen too much of that jaque fresco bloke and the zietgeist stuff, it's all a wonderful thought but in reality is far from attainable.
I'd love to see some form of greek level participation in politics with people being paid for their contribution, surely with the internet and connectivity at the level it is, it's more possible than ever to involve more people.
Whether the level of apathy is too great in the electorate and general public right now to be involved anymore is another thing.
I've seen too much of that jaque fresco bloke and the zietgeist stuff, it's all a wonderful thought but in reality is far from attainable.
I'd love to see some form of greek level participation in politics with people being paid for their contribution, surely with the internet and connectivity at the level it is, it's more possible than ever to involve more people.
Whether the level of apathy is too great in the electorate and general public right now to be involved anymore is another thing.
I think we need to go right back to basics, and you need strong leaders with conviction to rally people together, with a clear and simple message that people can easily buy into.
If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
What's wrong with regarding an election manifesto as a contract? It's considered a promise of sorts but how many get-outs do they need? They offer their 'programme' as an inducement to election then abandon it when it suits - without challenge. A regular review of progress by non-political select committee with powers of censure with penalties attached might help focus wandering attention spans.
Thorodin said:
What's wrong with regarding an election manifesto as a contract? It's considered a promise of sorts but how many get-outs do they need? They offer their 'programme' as an inducement to election then abandon it when it suits - without challenge. A regular review of progress by non-political select committee with powers of censure with penalties attached might help focus wandering attention spans.
MartG said:
Thorodin said:
What's wrong with regarding an election manifesto as a contract? It's considered a promise of sorts but how many get-outs do they need? They offer their 'programme' as an inducement to election then abandon it when it suits - without challenge. A regular review of progress by non-political select committee with powers of censure with penalties attached might help focus wandering attention spans.
I also think this new internet age offers up new opportunities to involve ordinary people more...but then the elite wouldn't want the ordinary people to have a say in how they are governed on a daily basis would they?
Edited by mrpurple on Saturday 18th October 15:53
wc98 said:
the rot starts at local council level ,permeates the civil service and manifests itself at westminster ,the entire political system needs an overhaul .
I spotted thishttp://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1846147190?pc_redi...
the other day,
Has anyone read it ?? Views?
Sad to say that the older I get, the more cynical I become - I don't trust a word of what any of them say, no matter what creed the politics.
It won't change until there is a root and branch cull of the whole bloomin' lot. Most seem to be greedy vainglorious political pygmies.
As that isn't going to happen in my lifetime, I just try and limit my exposure to any of them and try and enjoy my life as best I can.
It won't change until there is a root and branch cull of the whole bloomin' lot. Most seem to be greedy vainglorious political pygmies.
As that isn't going to happen in my lifetime, I just try and limit my exposure to any of them and try and enjoy my life as best I can.
grumbledoak said:
It's a good lesson. Ever heard "If you want something done properly you have to do it yourself"? That's because just telling people WHAT to do is not very effective. You need to tell them WHY your way is the right way...
I followed that path 'If you want something done properly you have to do it yourself' almost from the moment I was 17 and had been hit by the 'car' bug. Tinkering around the edges, I was hooked! Now the real stuff that matters (like politics) the driving force, the engine - now that had to be left to those at the top, in the know, so to speak. Don't tinker with that! It's beyond your remit.I'd wanted the engine rebuilt to I went to the man at the top, in the know, well he even raced the same marque. He rebuilt my engine and when I picked it up it sounded like a bag of nails. He told me just like the politicians do, drive it, keep going, 'things can only get better' - where would we hear that again?
Like f they did. Took it back, he stripped it down but could find nowt wrong. He was so perplexed he gave me most of the bill back!
So I took it to a man in the street who had the real knowledge (he stripped and rebuilt double decker bus engines).
The big ends have gone he told me. 'Big ends'? wtf is that, visualising a bloody great hammer.
Anyway, long story short. I 'did it myself', stripped the engine down and found a big end bearing cap on the wrong way round!
Never looked back. That was 47 years ago!
Don't listen to D-Ream and Labour (and the others) 'Things can only get better', listen to Thin Lizzy, 'Don't believe a word'.
Edited by dandarez on Saturday 18th October 16:11
Thorodin said:
What's wrong with regarding an election manifesto as a contract? It's considered a promise of sorts but how many get-outs do they need? They offer their 'programme' as an inducement to election then abandon it when it suits - without challenge. A regular review of progress by non-political select committee with powers of censure with penalties attached might help focus wandering attention spans.
The trouble is that its often not that simple. Events, as Harold Macmillan once noted, get in the way.One example that immediately springs to mind was in 2007, when at that year's conference CMD announced that they would increase the inheritance tax threshold to £1m. If you recall, many people in the know thought that this was the major reason for Gordon Brown bottling it and not calling an election.
But let's say he did call one, and lost. The tories would then have "increase inheritance tax threshold to £1m" in their manifesto and would be in power.
Then the 2008 crash happened. Does anybody think that the tories would have honoured that manifesto pledge in those circumastances?
BGARK said:
I think you might be missing the point, its not about contracts, lists, plans or even the how. It is about believing something so passionately that others will follow you.
For example look at how many millions of people believe in sky fairies without any evidence at all.
I am not a salesman, but I have come across few instances in my life when selling things (mainly cars to keep it on PH topic For example look at how many millions of people believe in sky fairies without any evidence at all.
) when it has been clear to me that the person had already bought it in their head before they came to see it. IMHO politics works in much the same way.Many people want to buy into a dream - their own personal Utopia. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that their particular party will bring them that Utopia. If they believe strongly enough, they will lap up any old drivel that their chosen party says, not because it is believable or often even feasible, but because "their man" has said it. Then, when their party gets into power and their personal Utopia hasn't arrived, they get bitter on internet forums and the letters pages of newspapers "and will never vote for them again" - but they usually cool down and do actually vote for them again come the next election
Religions have been doing this for years of course - something bad happens, and its God taking retribution for your sins, and nobody bats an eyelid. When, however, wannabe politicians do the same - was it "last year's floods were caused by gay marriage" or something like that? - somebody wants his head on a plate. And that brings me to the final point.
The interesting phenomenon we have at the moment is a public-school educated former City trader and ex Conservative party member who has become all things to all men. When you actually look at the detail of much what he has to say, and even more when you look at the manifesto pledges of the party he represents, you find that much of it is unworkable, not feasible or just plain daft. But you won't find many people agreeing with that viewpoint on PH, for to many on here he is the "New Messiah who speaks the truth." They believe him because they want to believe him, not because what he says is believable. He has shown them the sunlit uplands, and all they need to do is follow him to get to that personal Utopia I've been rabbiting on about.
One day, if and when that party gets a go at power, when it comes to pass that they fail to deliver their manifesto pledges and are just as bad as all the rest, there are going to be some very unhappy punters on PH. They will then probably be calling for that man's head on a plate...
Edited by rs1952 on Saturday 18th October 22:07
BGARK said:
I think we need to go right back to basics, and you need strong leaders with conviction to rally people together, with a clear and simple message that people can easily buy into.
If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
Apologies in advance but would you (of) minded if I don't take your post that seriously?If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
Think about it, drop ten of us into an island scenario and within a very small time, we would have voted for a 'leader' vs anarchy.
I do agree with you about allowing politicians in Westminster being allowed to live in their bubble. Utter crap!
A good friend sat with me in a top end restaurant having lunch discussing departmental cuts; not once was there Any question about 'what was best'. It was all about 'winning' in the Westminster game.
Tragic if not so predictable!
Meanwhile, whatever happened to successful people going into
Politics and not career politicians?
I don't want a 23 year old telling me what is best! f
k off And although my grasp of my own first language isn't always the best, nothing pisses me off more than a young politician making the most basic grammatical errors.
I would of thought that was obvious?
. (SWIDT)
Slaav said:
Apologies in advance but would you (of) minded if I don't take your post that seriously?
Think about it, drop ten of us into an island scenario and within a very small time, we would have voted for a 'leader' vs anarchy.
Absolutely, rip it to shreds if you like, I think out of daft ideas sometimes comes great inspiration. Who needs to be serious all of the time.Think about it, drop ten of us into an island scenario and within a very small time, we would have voted for a 'leader' vs anarchy.
I agree completely about finding a leader, my point was that it probably would not be a politician that became the leader, if anything they would be the first thing on the menu! (again not necessarily being serious).
BGARK said:
I think we need to go right back to basics, and you need strong leaders with conviction to rally people together, with a clear and simple message that people can easily buy into.
If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
Anyone remember the Night of the long knives in Germany, sometimes called Operation Hummingbird, or in Germany, the Röhm-Putsch when Hitler disposed of his competitors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Kni...If we was all dropped onto a desert island, what would we need to survive and grow our small community, I have no doubt that the last priority would be to put a "political system" (whatever than is) in place, or let a politician take charge of our survival!
You cannot discuss this sort of thing with people who have grown up surrounded by similar people pandering and trying to please everyone, they are brainwashed and they are generally on the wrong end of the scale when wanting things to change.
5 years to wait for a change of government in a time of fast moving technology and business is nuts. The whole system needs bringing down. I believe this is possible, and is one example of possible radical thinking that could break the mould.
Don't fix the old system lets create a completely new one!
ps. remember remember the 5th November.
The current UK political system is well fixed and no matter what party is put in power, the mechanics under the bonnet remain the same, think of it like a car having a respray, do you want black, white, red or blue. Nothing much changes.
I've watched the political elite meddle for over 40 years and have to say they are not fit for purpose. How the hell can Cameron or Clegg or Milliband appreciate real day to day living when they have never had a proper job in their lives and have been born into massive wealth which shield them from real life economic problems like not enough money in the kitty to pay the milkman.
Am afraid to say it, but the UK is in desperate need of a proper shake up of the political system in oder to make it more competitive to world markets without all this nanny state political correctness and EU bottom licking and ever more pointless legislation enforced by ever more self serving jobsworths. Honestly, how can a strong economy be built on coffee shops and charity shops!!!
Is what we need a military coup sometime soon, perhaps with the backing of the Monarchy, who are no doubt just as fed up with politicians meddling with day-to-day living as is everyone else living on this once great country?
This country is up to its neck in debt and neither party is willing to make genuine cuts to reign in the problem, till one day when the credit runs out and the country defaults. Do a search on google for 'Britain's trillion pound horror story' and watch and wince over the real financial mess we are in. Here's the link to watch the video: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v205926104rd9GssB?h1=Bri...
No.
Self serving bunch for the most part. You only have to look back at the expenses scandals for proof.
There are one or two decent politicians but they are outweighed by the rest.
They say anything to get our vote and then promptly forget their pledges. They are supposed to serve the people, but certainly doesn't feel that way to me.
Self serving bunch for the most part. You only have to look back at the expenses scandals for proof.
There are one or two decent politicians but they are outweighed by the rest.
They say anything to get our vote and then promptly forget their pledges. They are supposed to serve the people, but certainly doesn't feel that way to me.
Slaav said:
I don't want a 23 year old telling me what is best! fk off
Not talking about the NUS twunts on the march right now, but i feel you're wrong.k off It's the older generation who are so used to how things are who let things continue, no shakeup is big enough to dethrone some of the entrenched beliefs in our political system.
Im not saying that students and the young have the best ideas, realism comes to us all with age, but so does stubbornness and a willingness to fight for the status quo.
Only the young can drag us out of this hole, just hope there are some who are educated, well rounded, grounded and not in it just for nepotisms sake.
Whether you like it or not, at least the young dare to dream of better systems, whether the practicality of them in the current age is right or not.
MrBrightSi said:
It's the older generation who are so used to how things are who let things continue, no shakeup is big enough to dethrone some of the entrenched beliefs in our political system.
Nope, you are wrong with your comments, I'm well over 30 and might be considered by many to be of the older generation, and I am thoroughly fed up and disgusted with the current bunch of lying self-serving political idiots who are well and truly screwing this country up big style.This country needs change and it needs to change fast before it defaults.
Problem is that with having three upper-class clowns at the helm moving the deck chairs around ahead of the iceberg doesn't really alter the course and stop the ship from sinking!
Lib, Lab or Con. Nothing to choose from except more elaborate lies and deception and a different coloured tie.
I feel sorry for UKIP who might actually win and inherit the financial mess and take the blame when the country defaults, all thanks to the actions of the Labour and Conservative parties wasteful spending policies since the 1970s.
Am sure that many are ever hopeful of a military coup sometime soon, but assume that this is one area that the lying politicians are keeping a close eye on.
e21Mark said:
No.
Self serving bunch for the most part. You only have to look back at the expenses scandals for proof.
There are one or two decent politicians but they are outweighed by the rest.
They say anything to get our vote and then promptly forget their pledges. They are supposed to serve the people, but certainly doesn't feel that way to me.
That would have been a good time for a mass cull, a constitutional crisis (which I'm sure HM Queen Elizabeth would have dealt with just fineSelf serving bunch for the most part. You only have to look back at the expenses scandals for proof.
There are one or two decent politicians but they are outweighed by the rest.
They say anything to get our vote and then promptly forget their pledges. They are supposed to serve the people, but certainly doesn't feel that way to me.
) and a PROPER lesson about consequences then a new start with all-but a fresh set of MPs .Instead... Five or six apply take the Chiltern Hundreds, later go to court then get a stripy tan? It should have been five or six HUNDRED if that is the number who had their hands in the public purse...
You or I would face time if we did what a majority of MPs did, but almost all of them got away with it apart from having to pay money back - now tell me why we don't trust politicians or "the establishment"...
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