Why have the British Govn. not rescinded Muslim's passports?
Discussion
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
Pip1968 said:
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
Another one posted in the wrong forum.Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
SV8Predator said:
Another one posted in the wrong forum.
Where should I post it then? I thought it would fall under '-& the Law'.Terminator X said:
Let them go and don't let them back is surely a better policy?
TX.
I am happy as many others are I am sure to let them go and then just cancel their passport but why is it not being done - ?? If they are doing it in the Netherlands (somewhere I consider to be a fairly laid back country) why not here.TX.
Nobody has a right to live here as far as I am concerned unless they put their country first and not go crusading for some foreign caliphate.
Pip
Just playing the devils advocate - we dont take away the passport of people who commit more minor offences abroad so why apply that here.
Overal lI probably believe the passprots should be taken off them - if only for the fact it may make osme of them think twice if they realsie they cannot come back if they don't like it over there.
Overal lI probably believe the passprots should be taken off them - if only for the fact it may make osme of them think twice if they realsie they cannot come back if they don't like it over there.
Where has the HRA been blamed?
HarryW said:
Didn't they use to take passports from known football hooligans at some stage in the recent past?
Routinely. Although those are people with convictions and have ancillary orders placed upon them during sentencing like a Football Banning Order. I cant seem to find this story about revoking 46 passports anywhere. Only thing I can find are 'proposals'
Governments can and should be able to revoke passports of naturalized citizens. I should know this as I am one but it is a completely different case with citizens from birth (including those born after 1983). A responsible government can not make a citizen stateless. It is easy for people to say 'take their passports away' because these chaps look foreign and a bigot will subconsiously always believe 'he is not from here'. The truth however is that the majority of these people are as British as that caucasian from Cornwall.
If these guys going abroad to support these terrorist groups happened to be 'young white men', I am pretty sure taking away their passports would not have been an option that was considered.
Governments can and should be able to revoke passports of naturalized citizens. I should know this as I am one but it is a completely different case with citizens from birth (including those born after 1983). A responsible government can not make a citizen stateless. It is easy for people to say 'take their passports away' because these chaps look foreign and a bigot will subconsiously always believe 'he is not from here'. The truth however is that the majority of these people are as British as that caucasian from Cornwall.
If these guys going abroad to support these terrorist groups happened to be 'young white men', I am pretty sure taking away their passports would not have been an option that was considered.
Pip1968 said:
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
House of Commons Library note on Deprivation of British citizenship and withdrawal of passport facilitiesWhy have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
The above report is only 6 weeks old and tells you everything you need to know.
In summary, we are removing passports from people travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS. Unlike the Netherlands this often happens after they have left the UK. This is not necessarily a bad thing as the Netherlands Government then has to deal with the problem of would-be-terrorists remaining in their country.
However, it is worth noting that the actions of both the UK and Netherlands Governments are likely to be in breach of International Law - namely the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights.
Pip1968 said:
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
The main reason is that without passports they will either use a fake one or not use one at all, and then we'll have no idea when they come back to the UK. The scanner they use at the airport is tied to all the databases. So while it seems like a nice idea, it's really pretty stupid.Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
Belgium can make a little stand but it has no value because Belgium has no border controls at which it can stop people transiting the EU. We still do, fortunately.
davepoth said:
Pip1968 said:
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
The main reason is that without passports they will either use a fake one or not use one at all, and then we'll have no idea when they come back to the UK. The scanner they use at the airport is tied to all the databases. So while it seems like a nice idea, it's really pretty stupid.Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
Belgium can make a little stand but it has no value because Belgium has no border controls at which it can stop people transiting the EU. We still do, fortunately.
He went to Stansted to talk to someone flying in, and said to the Border Control staff "shall I wait here and then you let me know when he reaches the border check" only to be told that wouldn't work, and he'd have to stand on the aircraft jetway asking each passenger if they were "Mr Smith".
If we can't check properly who is coming in, and we are an island FFS, what is going on?
Eclassy said:
If these guys going abroad to support these terrorist groups happened to be 'young white men', I am pretty sure taking away their passports would not have been an option that was considered.
I don't care what colour or religion they are, take it from anyone going over there.TX.
The British government do take away people's passports. For example:
Guardian said:
"The former Guantánamo Bay inmate Moazzam Begg has been stripped of his UK passport after visiting Syria.
Begg, 45, from Birmingham, says he was stopped by police at Heathrow airport on his return from a trip to South Africa and told that his passport was being confiscated as it was "not in the public interest" for him to travel."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/moazz...
However under most circumstances, we cannot take away someones passport whilst they are still overseas as this would make them stateless which I believe is illegal under international law. The only exception to this is if someone has dual nationality. For example:Begg, 45, from Birmingham, says he was stopped by police at Heathrow airport on his return from a trip to South Africa and told that his passport was being confiscated as it was "not in the public interest" for him to travel."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/moazz...
Independant said:
"Secret use of citizenship-stripping powers has been dramatically stepped up as Theresa May moves to prevent the return of dual-nationals who have gone to fight in Syria.
The Home Secretary has so far revoked the British citizenship of 20 people this year – more than in her previous two- and-a-half years combined.
She has removed the citizenship of 37 people since May 2010, according to figures collated by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. Critics warned the practice could leave individuals at risk of torture and ill-treatment in their home countries."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/excl...
The Home Secretary has so far revoked the British citizenship of 20 people this year – more than in her previous two- and-a-half years combined.
She has removed the citizenship of 37 people since May 2010, according to figures collated by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. Critics warned the practice could leave individuals at risk of torture and ill-treatment in their home countries."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/excl...
Edited by BlackLabel on Sunday 19th October 14:51
Mojooo said:
Just playing the devils advocate - we dont take away the passport of people who commit more minor offences abroad so why apply that here.
Overal lI probably believe the passprots should be taken off them - if only for the fact it may make osme of them think twice if they realsie they cannot come back if they don't like it over there.
You answer your own question here really in that you are talking about "minor" offences but this is murder, genocide and terrorism. All very good reasons to give them to the country they wish to create.Overal lI probably believe the passprots should be taken off them - if only for the fact it may make osme of them think twice if they realsie they cannot come back if they don't like it over there.
Eclassy said:
I cant seem to find this story about revoking 46 passports anywhere. Only thing I can find are 'proposals'
Listen to the clip from the BBC.ralphrj said:
However, it is worth noting that the actions of both the UK and Netherlands Governments are likely to be in breach of International Law - namely the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights.
I never really get that. Why those that take away others' freedoms think they should be entitled to their freedom and human rights. They choose to leave and fight for another so should go and live elsewhere not here.
Terminator X said:
Eclassy said:
If these guys going abroad to support these terrorist groups happened to be 'young white men', I am pretty sure taking away their passports would not have been an option that was considered.
I don't care what colour or religion they are, take it from anyone going over there.TX.
Pip
Eclassy said:
If these guys going abroad to support these terrorist groups happened to be 'young white men', I am pretty sure taking away their passports would not have been an option that was considered.
You're a moron.When some 'young white men' went to set bombs off in gibralta their lives were taken away. The issue here is terrorism, not racism.
Pip1968 said:
Exactly why is it those of foreign descent (I use the term loosely) always play the colour/race card. They are going over to fight for their own little utopia so clearly do not want to live here. One I should add that wishes to put a black flag on the HP.
Pip
I dont think its the race card.Pip
John Smith and Ahmed Ahmed are friends from college. They become radicalized and travel to Syria for jihad. They soon realise that this isnt Call of Duty and wish to come back home after 3 weeks in a training camp without as much as lifting a gun in anger.
Now John Smith is a white caucasian and can trace is roots back hundreds of years.
Ahmed Ahmed on the other hand is a 3rd generation Asian with a caucasian mum and 2nd generation Pakistani dad. He was born in Blackpool, has never been to Pakistan and last saw his dad when he was five.
In the scenario above even though both are British citizens by birth, they could be treated differently under this flawed proposal. The government definitely wont be able to revoke John Smith's passport as he'd become stateless but will be allowed to revoke Ahmed Ahmed's because technically he wont be stateless as he 'has' dual nationality by virtue of his dad being a 2nd generation Pakistani in Britain.
I hope this makes it clear. I support the immediate revocation of the passports of those who have immigrated here and naturalized only to go and fight with terrorists against UK interests.
But for those who were born here and are British for all intents and purposes - to be able to revoke/cancel their passports because of where their parents/grand parents are from is a tad racist IMHO.
Pip1968 said:
Having just watched this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586746 on the BBC it seems as if even the Netherlands have taken passports form forty-six Muslims going to fight for ISIS. This in a country where the court of International Justice is located.
Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
In the Netherlands it has always been law that if you entered foreign military forces you lost your passport and nationality.Why have we not done the same - ? Is it just the usual 'mis-use' of Human Rights by those who stand accused - ???? Some have had them taken away whilst they were in the planning stages and others after they have left.
Why do we bend over for everyone?
Pip
Ps Of course I would have liked to clear up the title to 'Muslims who are taking up the cause with ISIS' but am limited by space.
You can ask permission by writing to the Queen (Government) to join foreign forces (e.g. Foreign Legion), no permission and you still do it you are in s
tville.Eclassy said:
I dont think its the race card.
John Smith and Ahmed Ahmed are friends from college. They become radicalized and travel to Syria for jihad. They soon realise that this isnt Call of Duty and wish to come back home after 3 weeks in a training camp without as much as lifting a gun in anger.
Now John Smith is a white caucasian and can trace is roots back hundreds of years.
Ahmed Ahmed on the other hand is a 3rd generation Asian with a caucasian mum and 2nd generation Pakistani dad. He was born in Blackpool, has never been to Pakistan and last saw his dad when he was five.
In the scenario above even though both are British citizens by birth, they could be treated differently under this flawed proposal. The government definitely wont be able to revoke John Smith's passport as he'd become stateless but will be allowed to revoke Ahmed Ahmed's because technically he wont be stateless as he 'has' dual nationality by virtue of his dad being a 2nd generation Pakistani in Britain.
I hope this makes it clear. I support the immediate revocation of the passports of those who have immigrated here and naturalized only to go and fight with terrorists against UK interests.
But for those who were born here and are British for all intents and purposes - to be able to revoke/cancel their passports because of where their parents/grand parents are from is a tad racist IMHO.
Personally I would revoke both, John Smith and Ahmed Ahmed but that aside if we can get rid of any terrorist at all it has to be a good thing. He Ahmed, has joint nationality so we can 'lawfully' get rid of him. Moreover unless Ahmed or John has a screw loose it does not take the brains of the archbishop to see that those making a religious call are killing anyone and everyone that does not fit into their square hole. John Smith and Ahmed Ahmed are friends from college. They become radicalized and travel to Syria for jihad. They soon realise that this isnt Call of Duty and wish to come back home after 3 weeks in a training camp without as much as lifting a gun in anger.
Now John Smith is a white caucasian and can trace is roots back hundreds of years.
Ahmed Ahmed on the other hand is a 3rd generation Asian with a caucasian mum and 2nd generation Pakistani dad. He was born in Blackpool, has never been to Pakistan and last saw his dad when he was five.
In the scenario above even though both are British citizens by birth, they could be treated differently under this flawed proposal. The government definitely wont be able to revoke John Smith's passport as he'd become stateless but will be allowed to revoke Ahmed Ahmed's because technically he wont be stateless as he 'has' dual nationality by virtue of his dad being a 2nd generation Pakistani in Britain.
I hope this makes it clear. I support the immediate revocation of the passports of those who have immigrated here and naturalized only to go and fight with terrorists against UK interests.
But for those who were born here and are British for all intents and purposes - to be able to revoke/cancel their passports because of where their parents/grand parents are from is a tad racist IMHO.
You can look on Ogrish.com (as it was - not sure if it still runs), Youtube, BBC News, Al Jazeera, You can read the papers and listen to the radio. You can watch 'The World at War' or documentaries on Afghanistan or Iraq to see what war/combat/terrorism entails. Peter Kassig, Alan Henning, David Haines and Steven Stoloff are all well publicised people executed or about to be by ISIS. What sort of moron thinks that they are going on a holiday camp for a religious jihad - John and Ahmed?
It is not racist anymore than ISIS or their beliefs are. Muslims forcing their religion on a non Muslim country through a caliphate abroad. Go to a Muslim country and stay there or fight your jihad for a new nation but do not expect the British Government to bail you out when you realise it is not really your cup of tea!
I am all for tolerance but only if you play by our rules ie stay within the laws of the land. I refer here to FGM, stopping women from dressing how they wish, stopping the consumption of alcohol by others, fighting foreign wars, beheadings with a knife, running over British citizens and then chopping them up. The little things that show you are trying to fit into a country that has a free healthcare and education and is extremely tolerant.
Pip
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