Didcot Powerstation Fire - Looks bad :(

[Scuffers]

TimJMS said:

Gas can be whacked up and down with ease. Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

yes, they can, but that's somewhat missing the point.

Dinorwig is only 1 storage facility, we need 5-6 of them this size, and using wind-power to 'charge them' is actually more problematic (unlike what they were designed to be used with - Nuclear)

the other issue is ramping up Gas at a moments notice is actually pretty bad for their efficiency, not to mention the lack of gas storage.

now we get to the real issue, what to do when there is no wind, which looking historically is like 90+ % of the time.

[Einion Yrth]

TimJMS said:

Gas can be whacked up and down with ease. Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

Last time I looked Dinorwig was pumped storage hydro.

[TimJMS]

Einion Yrth said:

TimJMS said:

Gas can be whacked up and down with ease. Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

Last time I looked Dinorwig was pumped storage hydro.

I was giving examples of energy producers that can easily be turned on and off.

[226bhp]

phumy said:

These cooling towers are constructed from around 10-15% (Concrete Foundation), around 60-70% Timber (main structure) and 15-20% Plastic (Internal tray elements)

That isn't correct, the actual flue is constructed from 100% concrete and steel. You wouldn't build a structure like that from wood!
The older ones have the ducting inside which carries the water made from wood, it will have been that burning, not the tower itself.

[TimJMS]

Scuffers said:

yes, they can, but that's somewhat missing the point.

Dinorwig is only 1 storage facility, we need 5-6 of them this size, and using wind-power to 'charge them' is actually more problematic (unlike what they were designed to be used with - Nuclear)

the other issue is ramping up Gas at a moments notice is actually pretty bad for their efficiency, not to mention the lack of gas storage.

now we get to the real issue, what to do when there is no wind, which looking historically is like 90+ % of the time.

Hey I'm with you. Wind is a bit st. I think we all realise that. All renewables without storage are.

[turbobloke]

TimJMS said:

Einion Yrth said:

TimJMS said:

Gas can be whacked up and down with ease. Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

Last time I looked Dinorwig was pumped storage hydro.

I was giving examples of energy producers that can easily be turned on and off.

When the EU has forced closure of various energy generators and the wind doesn't "turn on" after we've missed the impossible-to-achieve and £trillion busting windymill targets, there are now broadband links to the infamous diesel generators which can switch on and ramp up in seconds (allegedly).

[phumy]

226bhp said:

phumy said:

These cooling towers are constructed from around 10-15% (Concrete Foundation), around 60-70% Timber (main structure) and 15-20% Plastic (Internal tray elements)

That isn't correct, the actual flue is constructed from 100% concrete and steel. You wouldn't build a structure like that from wood!
The older ones have the ducting inside which carries the water made from wood, it will have been that burning, not the tower itself.

Not correct eh! Where is your qualification for this not being correct, mine is that i have constructed, commissioned and operated 6 of these new CCGT power plants, 3 of them with timber cooling towers, now tell me i am wrong.

Edited by phumy on Monday 20th October 09:13

[TimJMS]

turbobloke said:

When the EU has forced closure of various energy generators and the wind doesn't "turn on" after we've missed the impossible-to-achieve and £trillion busting windymill targets, there are now broadband links to the infamous diesel generators which can switch on and ramp up in seconds (allegedly).

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring - Cameron has guaranteed the French £92.50/Mwh for new nuclear. Double the current cost so we are all fked anyway.

[turbobloke]

TimJMS said:

turbobloke said:

When the EU has forced closure of various energy generators and the wind doesn't "turn on" after we've missed the impossible-to-achieve and £trillion busting windymill targets, there are now broadband links to the infamous diesel generators which can switch on and ramp up in seconds (allegedly).

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring - Cameron has guaranteed the French £92.50/Mwh for new nuclear. Double the current cost so we are all fked anyway.

So that's either a case of "Cameron, you stupid boy" or "Hurrah for clear blue green water".

[arp1]

Well done all those brave firies who went in to deal with it, those who run in against the flow of people running away

[Steve vRS]

arp1 said:

Well done all those brave firies who went in to deal with it, those who run in against the flow of people running away

Hopefully if all site personnel were accounted for they will have been told under no circumstances to put themselves at risk to protect an asset. If a company want an asset protected against fire, they must design this protection in!

Steve

[Scuffers]

Steve vRS said:

Hopefully if all site personnel were accounted for they will have been told under no circumstances to put themselves at risk to protect an asset. If a company want an asset protected against fire, they must design this protection in!

Steve

reports indicate there were 12 staff on site, no injuries.

[2013BRM]

phumy said:

These cooling towers are constructed from around 10-15% (Concrete Foundation), around 60-70% Timber (main structure) and 15-20% Plastic (Internal tray elements)

that surprises me, they look like concrete, where does the wood go?

[ChemicalChaos]

TimJMS said:

gruffalo said:

With wind being so unreliable a source as we can see from the posts above what I want to understand is how are the fluctuations absorbed by the rest of the grid, can coal and gas power stations modulate there output rapidly and if so can they also modulate the fuel used, or do they running at optimum all the time and waste what is not needed.

I know modulation is possible for times of traditional high and low demand but is it possible on a minute by minute basis and does it really result in a reduced fuel burn?

Gas can be whacked up and down with ease. Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

And it actually generates more CO2 to keep ramping them up or down than it would to run them at the required output for zero-wind conditions.
But hey, it's fine as long as we can claim some power comes from the stupid things

[anonymous-user]

2013BRM said:

phumy said:

These cooling towers are constructed from around 10-15% (Concrete Foundation), around 60-70% Timber (main structure) and 15-20% Plastic (Internal tray elements)

that surprises me, they look like concrete, where does the wood go?

The torched ones aren't the traditional massive tower structures,

[2013BRM]

ah, thanks

[Sheepshanks]

don4l said:

TimJMS said:

Russ35 said:

You can see the current and historical generation figures from here

http://nationalgrid.stephenmorley.org/

or

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Edited by Russ35 on Sunday 19th October 23:16

Wow, impressive stuff, thanks for the links. 24% from wind ATM.

Less than 30 minutes ago, it was 24%. Now it is 10.9%.

This shows how bloody unreliable wind is.

Still higher than I thought though - I'd have guessed the figure was a few %.

I'm also amazed at how high gas is, and how low nuclear is.

[Magog]

TimJMS said:

Dinorwig in Wales can go from nothing to full output in less than a minute.

Did the tour of this when I was a kid. Must be one of the closest things to a real life Bond villains HQ in the world, well worth a visit.

[69 coupe]

Thanks for the info Phumy, I always assumed Cooling Towers were the giant monoliths that could be seen from miles away with a Venturi waist design, didn't realise that they are now modular and much shorter in stature, more like cooling prefab blocks.

Why is Wood used instead of stainless (weight/cost)?

[McWigglebum4th]

Scuffers said:

so, now half of Didcot is out, who wants to predict the day for lights out?

Not going to happen

I know this

Why do i know this?

The generator has been serviced and is waiting in the garden shed with fresh petrol and a spare can


Every time i do this = no powercuts

If i use the petrol in something else and use the genny so the tank is empty = 100% chance of powercut within 6 months