Tory plan for Budget March 2015 to help win election
Discussion
edh said:
You can't blame labour spending for the deficit, it was a huge drop in tax receipts that pushed us into deficit.
edh said:
Not kidding anyone, your pics show the detail I refer to. Lamont/Clarke Tories ran a similar sized deficit (which was in part, structural). As you show, it was only in 2008 when things started to go badly out of line.
What the pics show is that you were clearly in deficit prior to the drop in tax reciepts! Obviously the drop in tax receipts from 2008 onwards made it worse. Prior to 2008 you had record tax receipts and were still in deficit. Are you still claiming that isn't due to over spending? Even Ed Balls admits it now!
Pointing out that Lamont/Clarke were equally s
t might make you feel better somehow but does not make your previous statement true.fblm said:
edh said:
You can't blame labour spending for the deficit, it was a huge drop in tax receipts that pushed us into deficit.
edh said:
Not kidding anyone, your pics show the detail I refer to. Lamont/Clarke Tories ran a similar sized deficit (which was in part, structural). As you show, it was only in 2008 when things started to go badly out of line.
What the pics show is that you were clearly in deficit prior to the drop in tax reciepts! Obviously the drop in tax receipts from 2008 onwards made it worse. Prior to 2008 you had record tax receipts and were still in deficit. Are you still claiming that isn't due to over spending? Even Ed Balls admits it now!
Pointing out that Lamont/Clarke were equally s
t might make you feel better somehow but does not make your previous statement true.A lot of the labour stealth taxes and fiscal drag matter more now in a post crash environment, also the climate change act 2008 kicking in at precisely the worst time, you have a perfect storm. Government carry on oblivious and still haven't made any meaningful cuts, or bonfire of quangos.
edh said:
Ok maybe I should have written "pushed us into significant deficit" or something similar. They were plodding along with deficits in line with most UK governments, anticipating all the lovely tax income from an economy besotted with finance, borrowing and selling debt to each other. That appeared to be the financial orthodoxy across the world. Then it all came crashing down. Even if we'd been running a balanced budget, there's nothing that would have prepared us for 7 years of £100bn+ deficits.
Thing is Welfare total spend is c£200billion its roughly 50:50 state pension and all other benefits - so given MOD education NHS prisons are all now totally cut to the bone - relatively speaking - while welfare has had hardly any cuts. So where should the cuts fall?
If you say raise taxes ... Well total income tax is only £150billion so to find a further £100billion on top of that will crush the economy and send millions into repossessions as suddenly take home pay is cut in half.
Hoping/relying for the economy to recover just doesn't work especially as debt interest will increase and get to unsustainable levels. Remember we pay £60billion in debt interest that's 60% of the non state pension welfare budget.....
There are plenty of other taxes apart from income tax. I suggested a few ideas earlier in the thread for cuts and tax changes. I think there are huge amounts to go at, but you'd need to be radical. Squeezing welfare sounds great, but can you suggest which benefits to cut? child tax credit or working tax credit for the low paid? Housing benefit? DLA or PIP or maybe ESA?
edh said:
There are plenty of other taxes apart from income tax. I suggested a few ideas earlier in the thread for cuts and tax changes. I think there are huge amounts to go at, but you'd need to be radical. Squeezing welfare sounds great, but can you suggest which benefits to cut? child tax credit or working tax credit for the low paid? Housing benefit? DLA or PIP or maybe ESA?
But a land tax - what is that actually for? We pay council tax. What about those who are wealthy but rent why should they avoid this putative tax?
VAT increases - given wages have increased 0.9% on average and inflation is now 1.2% suddenly upping VAT just where will people find the money to pay for the extra? Possibly downgrade from brands to own label - but what about those who have already done all these easy wins and are up against it?
Taxes on country where profit is generated is good - though one issue how much of our corporation tax take is from profits earned overseas.... We could end up worse off. Remember the UK is moving to a 20% corporation tax rate half the USA and apart from Ireland the sharpest in EU.
edh said:
Even if we'd been running a balanced budget, there's nothing that would have prepared us for 7 years of £100bn+ deficits.
If you'd been running a balanced budget, which lets face it, would not have been difficult during the 'boom' years, very simply you'd have gone into the financial crisis with 200bn less debt. Financial services alone paid 70bn in tax in 2007! Indeed had Brown not been quite to profligate with your money the boom years would likely not been so boomy nor the crash quite so uh crashy. Anyway it looks like Balls is going to get another chance to stick a bullet in the head of the UK soon enough. Good luck!Welshbeef said:
edh said:
There are plenty of other taxes apart from income tax. I suggested a few ideas earlier in the thread for cuts and tax changes. I think there are huge amounts to go at, but you'd need to be radical. Squeezing welfare sounds great, but can you suggest which benefits to cut? child tax credit or working tax credit for the low paid? Housing benefit? DLA or PIP or maybe ESA?
But a land tax - what is that actually for? We pay council tax. What about those who are wealthy but rent why should they avoid this putative tax?
VAT increases - given wages have increased 0.9% on average and inflation is now 1.2% suddenly upping VAT just where will people find the money to pay for the extra? Possibly downgrade from brands to own label - but what about those who have already done all these easy wins and are up against it?
Taxes on country where profit is generated is good - though one issue how much of our corporation tax take is from profits earned overseas.... We could end up worse off. Remember the UK is moving to a 20% corporation tax rate half the USA and apart from Ireland the sharpest in EU.
Council tax is regressive, certainly at current bands, Land Value Tax quite different, and would replace CT. Lots of articles appearing on LVT now, but here's a short one from a non-left (or liberal) source http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/the-case-for-a-land-val...
fblm said:
edh said:
Even if we'd been running a balanced budget, there's nothing that would have prepared us for 7 years of £100bn+ deficits.
If you'd been running a balanced budget, which lets face it, would not have been difficult during the 'boom' years, very simply you'd have gone into the financial crisis with 200bn less debt. Financial services alone paid 70bn in tax in 2007! Indeed had Brown not been quite to profligate with your money the boom years would likely not been so boomy nor the crash quite so uh crashy. Anyway it looks like Balls is going to get another chance to stick a bullet in the head of the UK soon enough. Good luck!If they get in, Balls & Labour need to be much braver this time rather than let the financial sector run riot again, and not using taxes to subsidise company profits through working tax credits. There's also plenty of spending / tax that they could address if they had some courage and weren't scared of the Mail.
They certainly won't be inheriting a strong position unlike Brown did from Clarke. That did come at quite a cost to our national infrastructure though after years of neglect of capital improvements to hospitals, schools etc... Which led to the crazy world of PFI..
edh said:
If they get in, Balls & Labour need to be much braver this time rather than let the financial sector run riot again, and not using taxes to subsidise company profits through working tax credits. There's also plenty of spending / tax that they could address if they had some courage and weren't scared of the Mail.
They certainly won't be inheriting a strong position unlike Brown did from Clarke. That did come at quite a cost to our national infrastructure though after years of neglect of capital improvements to hospitals, schools etc... Which led to the crazy world of PFI..
Even if Ed'n'Ed took your advice the flies in the ointment include their lack of operational ability (competence) and an ideological half-life measured in months. It would inevitably go titsup. As their modern history track record over the past four to five decades shows to anyone who will see, Labour doesn't work.They certainly won't be inheriting a strong position unlike Brown did from Clarke. That did come at quite a cost to our national infrastructure though after years of neglect of capital improvements to hospitals, schools etc... Which led to the crazy world of PFI..
edh said:
Don't you think those £70bn of fin services taxes were part of the problem? - paid on profits which were in some part illusory and subsequently unwound in huge losses.
The tax from financial services being part of the problem? I disagree. Even if you take the view that the City is nothing more than a giant parasite do not underestimate its global reach. London is the financial centre of europe and half of the rest of the world. It generates massive profits from abroad. Irrespective of your view on banking and finance, that's great for the UK's finances. To put it in perspective the entire cost of the UK bank bailouts was less than 2 years tax receipts! And that values RBS and Lloyds at zero. There is a reason the EU is desperately trying to damage the city and claw back their banks to Paris and Frankfurt.edh said:
If they get in, Balls & Labour need to be much braver this time rather than let the financial sector run riot again,
The banks have already beaten them to it. The culture of risk management has completely changed at most banks to the extent they are painfully dull to work at now. Of course armies are only ever prepared to fight the last war. The next crisis will be something different.edh said:
and not using taxes to subsidise company profits through working tax credits.
Completely agree, madness, especially when said companies then export their profits tax free.edh said:
They certainly won't be inheriting a strong position unlike Brown did from Clarke. That did come at quite a cost to our national infrastructure though after years of neglect of capital improvements to hospitals, schools etc... Which led to the crazy world of PFI..
The state of the UK economy in 1997 was remarkable when you look at it from todays perspective...1997 2014
National Debt 348bn 1441bn
Budget Deficit 15bn 105bn
Unfunded public sector pensions 270bn 1200bn
Personal Debt 503bn 1437bn
Balance of trade +4.4bn -28bn
PFI - the Tories started it but it was Brown who really used PFI to take the piss...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/84087...
In theory its a good idea, in practice I don't think politicians of any colour are capable or incentivised to get the tax payer a good deal.
edh said:
fblm said:
edh said:
Even if we'd been running a balanced budget, there's nothing that would have prepared us for 7 years of £100bn+ deficits.
If you'd been running a balanced budget, which lets face it, would not have been difficult during the 'boom' years, very simply you'd have gone into the financial crisis with 200bn less debt. Financial services alone paid 70bn in tax in 2007! Indeed had Brown not been quite to profligate with your money the boom years would likely not been so boomy nor the crash quite so uh crashy. Anyway it looks like Balls is going to get another chance to stick a bullet in the head of the UK soon enough. Good luck!If they get in, Balls & Labour need to be much braver this time rather than let the financial sector run riot again, and not using taxes to subsidise company profits through working tax credits. There's also plenty of spending / tax that they could address if they had some courage and weren't scared of the Mail.
They certainly won't be inheriting a strong position unlike Brown did from Clarke. That did come at quite a cost to our national infrastructure though after years of neglect of capital improvements to hospitals, schools etc... Which led to the crazy world of PFI..
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