Oxymoronic French law on veils raises its head again...

[Countdown]

grumbledoak said:

Countdown said:

Let's try again - Do you think murder and FGM are morally equivalent to how a person chooses to dress?

Why are you trying to connect the unconnected? Murder and FGM are not morally equivalent to each other. Both are banned. Rightly, in my view, but maybe you think I am just not "progressive" enough.

YOU are the one that connected them.

grumbledoak said:

There is no paradox or contradiction involved. Murder is banned. FGM is banned. Nudity in public is banned. Covered faces in public should be too.

I hope you can now understand why it's a stupid connection

grumbledoak said:

If we accept that we can have good reasons for banning a range of behaviours, we are quite free to add "walking around with your face covered". Yet still be a tolerant culture. Without paradox. Or contradiction. As I said.

And using the same logic we can add "banning cheese and onion pies" and still be a tolerant culture. After all, it's a proven fact that they cause obesity and death. People are either being forced to eat them or they've been brainwashed into eating them. Either way - banning them will stop obesity.

[Eclassy]

I hope they ban the hoody soon. I am terrified when I see a mob of boys from sarf London with their oversized hoodies up.

I am sure more people are terrified of a group of teenagers with their hoodies up than a muslim lady with a burqa.

Edited by Eclassy on Wednesday 22 October 11:42

[Countdown]

I find people with shaven heads, wearing vests and with tattoos intimidating, especially in pubs.

[tangerine_sedge]

jesta1865 said:

no they don't they want to feel safe, and if that means bikers have to remove helmets to get petrol, muslims are not allowed to wear veils, jewish people are not allowed to wear hats then so be it, bear grylls can't wear a balaclava

this is still a democratic country and we are allowed to have it run the way we want, if that upsets the minority, then sorry but that's the way it is. lots of stuff annoys me in this country, but as i am in a minority for most of it, i won't affect change till i convince enough people to side with me.

as for demonising anyone who thinks or acts differently, what do you think isis are doing and want to do to the rest of the world?

So how much more safe will people feel if veils are banned? 1%? 10%? I'm sure you can make up something.

This is nothing to do with safety and more to do with imposing your beliefs and views on other people. I also live in that same democracy which thankfully allows people to wear pretty much what they want as long as it doesn't impact on other peoples rights.

This discussion is nothing to do with ISIS, or what they are currently doing. This is a discussion about people in Britain being allowed to wear what they want in public.

[grumbledoak]

Countdown said:

And using the same logic we can add "banning cheese and onion pies" and still be a tolerant culture.

Yes, we can. Go start the petition. I would not sign that one as I don't care either way. But it would not make us intolerant if enough people did sign and we subsequently banned them. It would not be a paradox. Or a contradiction. Just a decision that maybe some people do not agree with. That's all.

[Mr_B]

Countdown said:

I find people with shaven heads, wearing vests and with tattoos intimidating, especially in pubs.

Thankfully tattooing kids and serving them alcohol in pubs is banned. Little girls in a burka ? Nope.

[ATG]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The veil is all about subjugation of women. Women who say it gives them freedom because they are not judged on their looks have been brainwashed into this nonsense ...

Who are you to judge?

[Digga]

Countdown said:

I find people with shaven heads, wearing vests and with tattoos intimidating, especially in pubs.

It's socks with sandals I have an aversion to, so I avoid the local trainspotter's club meets.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Eclassy said:

I hope they ban the hoody soon. I am terrified when I see a mob of boys from sarf London with their oversized hoodies up.

I am sure more people are terrified of a group of teenagers with their hoodies up than a muslim lady with a burqa.

Edited by Eclassy on Wednesday 22 October 11:42

It's not a case of terror. There are loads of fashions that I find dreadful, from sandals with socks to trousers worn hallway down your arse. Stupid hoodies too. But they aren't offensive.

I find the veil offensive. It's a slap in the face for our culture, and it drags women back to a period in our history when they had less respect and freedom than a man's dog. Many people feel the same. Many British Muslims feel the same.

I'd like it banned. But I also realise that it won't happen.

[Norfolkit]

Digga said:

It's socks with sandals I have an aversion to

Never, ever, go to Great Yarmouth then, ever.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ATG said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The veil is all about subjugation of women. Women who say it gives them freedom because they are not judged on their looks have been brainwashed into this nonsense ...

Who are you to judge?

I'm me, that's who! Who else's opinion do you expect me to give?

[FredClogs]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ATG said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The veil is all about subjugation of women. Women who say it gives them freedom because they are not judged on their looks have been brainwashed into this nonsense ...

Who are you to judge?

I'm me, that's who! Who else's opinion do you expect me to give?

This guy highlights quite well what would be the basic failing of mob rule democracy. Thank goodness for Plato and Socrates and their funny choice of clothing.

[Liokault]

tangerine_sedge said:

That's because Murder and FGM impact a 3rd party who does not normally have a choice in the matter. They are rightly banned for this reason. To compare them to wearing a veil is patently absurd.

.

Just google "forced to wear hijab by husband" and tell me again that its a logica, informed choice to cover ones face.

[Hugo a Gogo]

jesta1865 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

jesta1865 said:

FredClogs said:

Democracy isn't about mob rule, it's primary function is to protect innocent minorities and protect the rights of people to practice whatever harmless personal choices they happen to decide upon.

Democracy is about giving voice to people, no matter how daft they might be, not removing it.

It's a very sad reflection of UK culture and education that people don't recognise this.

who mentioned mob rule, if there was a strong case to ban t shirts and the majority of uk residents agreed then that is democracy at it's purest form surely?

it democracy at it's worst
the tyranny of the majority


there is no strong case for people to be banned from wearing silly costumes

err isn't what the majority wants the very foundation of democracy? if you are a minority you can move

no

try some reading about democracy

[TwigtheWonderkid]

FredClogs said:

This guy highlights quite well what would be the basic failing of mob rule democracy. Thank goodness for Plato and Socrates and their funny choice of clothing.

You make it sound like those wanting the veil banned are doing harm those who want to wear it. When in fact the opposite is true. Freeing them up from patriarchal repression, whether they realise it or not.

It's hardly 5 foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for lunch, and the foxes claiming "that's democracy!"

[Countdown]

Liokault said:

Just google "forced to wear hijab by husband" and tell me again that its a logica, informed choice to cover ones face.

or "choosing to wear a Hijab" perhaps?

[Hugo a Gogo]

Liokault said:

tangerine_sedge said:

That's because Murder and FGM impact a 3rd party who does not normally have a choice in the matter. They are rightly banned for this reason. To compare them to wearing a veil is patently absurd.

.

Just google "forced to wear hijab by husband" and tell me again that its a logica, informed choice to cover ones face.

a woman forced to do things against her will by her husband should divorce him

simple

[JagLover]

tangerine_sedge said:

This discussion is nothing to do with ISIS, or what they are currently doing. This is a discussion about people in Britain being allowed to wear what they want in public.

Except that hundreds of British Muslims have joined ISIS and by not confronting issues such as this we have created the conditions for extremism to thrive.

[FredClogs]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

FredClogs said:

This guy highlights quite well what would be the basic failing of mob rule democracy. Thank goodness for Plato and Socrates and their funny choice of clothing.

You make it sound like those wanting the veil banned are doing harm those who want to wear it. When in fact the opposite is true. Freeing them up from patriarchal repression, whether they realise it or not.

It's hardly 5 foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for lunch, and the foxes claiming "that's democracy!"

Oh Christ, Muhammad and Buddha on a bicycle, there's nothing worse than an atheist on a moral crusade.

Whether you realise it or not your opinions are irrelevant to the vast majority of people and the rest of us just find them patronising and deeply hypocritical.

[ATG]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

You make it sound like those wanting the veil banned are doing harm those who want to wear it. When in fact the opposite is true. Freeing them up from patriarchal repression, whether they realise it or not.

It's hardly 5 foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for lunch, and the foxes claiming "that's democracy!"

Saving people from themselves. How noble.

Maybe socialists should save capitalists from themselves? Maybe capitalists should save socialists from themselves? As long as you've got good intentions it's perfectly OK to force your views on someone else who disagrees with you. You know better than them of course.