Oxymoronic French law on veils raises its head again...
Discussion
FredClogs said:
Oh Christ, Muhammad and Buddha on a bicycle, there's nothing worse than an atheist on a moral crusade.
Really. I would have thought Islamists on a moral crusade are slightly worse. After all, although I disagree with you, I have no desire to cut your head off. Or Christians on a moral crusade, like the.....Crusades!!!But obviously you find people expressing views you disagree with more troubling. Which perhaps says more about you than me.
I am opposed to any kind of religion; it's indoctrination and brainwashing. Any child brought up as a 'christian', 'muslim' or 'sikh' isn't making a choice. They're being told, from a very young age, that it's what they are - and the penalties for 'leaving' are extreme (the JWs are good at this also).
The issue I have with the burka specifically is that it undermines some basic - yet essential - communications between individuals. Over millions of years, we've evolved to 'read' faces; fear, surprise, joy, sadness, disgust - all of these work alongside what we say and how we say it to form the foundations of civilised communication and interaction. Imagine a world where everyone covered their faces....it would be horrific. There is no excuse for a religion that treats women as second-class citizens and forces them to spend their lives in hiding based on some mumbo-jumbo.
On an even more simplistic level, I like to know with whom I'm speaking and a full veil is incompatible with that.
The issue I have with the burka specifically is that it undermines some basic - yet essential - communications between individuals. Over millions of years, we've evolved to 'read' faces; fear, surprise, joy, sadness, disgust - all of these work alongside what we say and how we say it to form the foundations of civilised communication and interaction. Imagine a world where everyone covered their faces....it would be horrific. There is no excuse for a religion that treats women as second-class citizens and forces them to spend their lives in hiding based on some mumbo-jumbo.
On an even more simplistic level, I like to know with whom I'm speaking and a full veil is incompatible with that.
Hugo a Gogo said:
jesta1865 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
jesta1865 said:
FredClogs said:
Democracy isn't about mob rule, it's primary function is to protect innocent minorities and protect the rights of people to practice whatever harmless personal choices they happen to decide upon.
Democracy is about giving voice to people, no matter how daft they might be, not removing it.
It's a very sad reflection of UK culture and education that people don't recognise this.
who mentioned mob rule, if there was a strong case to ban t shirts and the majority of uk residents agreed then that is democracy at it's purest form surely?Democracy is about giving voice to people, no matter how daft they might be, not removing it.
It's a very sad reflection of UK culture and education that people don't recognise this.
the tyranny of the majority
there is no strong case for people to be banned from wearing silly costumes
try some reading about democracy
JagLover said:
tangerine_sedge said:
This discussion is nothing to do with ISIS, or what they are currently doing. This is a discussion about people in Britain being allowed to wear what they want in public.
Except that hundreds of British Muslims have joined ISIS and by not confronting issues such as this we have created the conditions for extremism to thrive.tangerine_sedge said:
jesta1865 said:
no they don't they want to feel safe, and if that means bikers have to remove helmets to get petrol, muslims are not allowed to wear veils, jewish people are not allowed to wear hats then so be it, bear grylls can't wear a balaclava
this is still a democratic country and we are allowed to have it run the way we want, if that upsets the minority, then sorry but that's the way it is. lots of stuff annoys me in this country, but as i am in a minority for most of it, i won't affect change till i convince enough people to side with me.
as for demonising anyone who thinks or acts differently, what do you think isis are doing and want to do to the rest of the world?
So how much more safe will people feel if veils are banned? 1%? 10%? I'm sure you can make up something.this is still a democratic country and we are allowed to have it run the way we want, if that upsets the minority, then sorry but that's the way it is. lots of stuff annoys me in this country, but as i am in a minority for most of it, i won't affect change till i convince enough people to side with me.
as for demonising anyone who thinks or acts differently, what do you think isis are doing and want to do to the rest of the world?
This is nothing to do with safety and more to do with imposing your beliefs and views on other people. I also live in that same democracy which thankfully allows people to wear pretty much what they want as long as it doesn't impact on other peoples rights.
This discussion is nothing to do with ISIS, or what they are currently doing. This is a discussion about people in Britain being allowed to wear what they want in public.
nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
jesta1865 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
jesta1865 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
jesta1865 said:
FredClogs said:
Democracy isn't about mob rule, it's primary function is to protect innocent minorities and protect the rights of people to practice whatever harmless personal choices they happen to decide upon.
Democracy is about giving voice to people, no matter how daft they might be, not removing it.
It's a very sad reflection of UK culture and education that people don't recognise this.
who mentioned mob rule, if there was a strong case to ban t shirts and the majority of uk residents agreed then that is democracy at it's purest form surely?Democracy is about giving voice to people, no matter how daft they might be, not removing it.
It's a very sad reflection of UK culture and education that people don't recognise this.
the tyranny of the majority
there is no strong case for people to be banned from wearing silly costumes
try some reading about democracy
read about the tyranny of the majority, read Plato's The Republic
study the democratic processes around the world, the Bill of Rights etc etc
give me an example of a society who says 'the minority can move'
don't just link me to a feckin dictionary definition
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Plus it's a health hazard. In northern Europe, there are many cases of Islamic women dressed as ninjas suffering from vitamin D deficiency. The sunlight here isn't like the sunlight in Saudi. You need more exposure to it.
Brilliant.Well it's clear for me to see that you're just worried about their health and you are in no way scared/intimidated by seeing different people/cultures.
jesta1865 said:
how would i know how much safer people would feel, the feedback i get from day to day living is that it worries people, that other people have their faces covered in one form or another.
nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
What the hell have Isis got to do with anything? I don't want to live in a country that sticks its nose into peoples lives any more than necessary. There is no good reason for banning a form of dress that, although ridiculous to my eyes and probably offensive, is completely harmless. Why is the answer always to reach for the banhammer? Drives me up the wall.nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
TKF said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Plus it's a health hazard. In northern Europe, there are many cases of Islamic women dressed as ninjas suffering from vitamin D deficiency. The sunlight here isn't like the sunlight in Saudi. You need more exposure to it.
Brilliant.Well it's clear for me to see that you're just worried about their health and you are in no way scared/intimidated by seeing different people/cultures.
Just saying.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Plus it's a health hazard. In northern Europe, there are many cases of Islamic women dressed as ninjas suffering from vitamin D deficiency. The sunlight here isn't like the sunlight in Saudi. You need more exposure to it.
You know what else is a health hazard in that case? Being dark. I think we should expel all of them for their own good you see. We're really just looking out for them - ungrateful b
ds.Hugo a Gogo said:
read it yourself, read all of it, about mob rule
read about the tyranny of the majority, read Plato's The Republic
study the democratic processes around the world, the Bill of Rights etc etc
give me an example of a society who says 'the minority can move'
don't just link me to a feckin dictionary definition
i have read it all, and it's an encyclopaedia definition, try understanding it, 1 man 1 vote majority rule, that is democracy in it's pure form.read about the tyranny of the majority, read Plato's The Republic
study the democratic processes around the world, the Bill of Rights etc etc
give me an example of a society who says 'the minority can move'
don't just link me to a feckin dictionary definition
i don't know how you find it difficult to understand that the majority are allowed to rule in a democracy? no one is mentioning mob rule except you, i'm talking about the democratic process, including the will of the people.
we use a jury system here that will take a majority verdict and a lot of law is based on how the common man would interpret actions and words.
no-one is talking about kangeroo courts or lynch mobs.
wolves_wanderer said:
jesta1865 said:
how would i know how much safer people would feel, the feedback i get from day to day living is that it worries people, that other people have their faces covered in one form or another.
nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
What the hell have Isis got to do with anything? I don't want to live in a country that sticks its nose into peoples lives any more than necessary. There is no good reason for banning a form of dress that, although ridiculous to my eyes and probably offensive, is completely harmless. Why is the answer always to reach for the banhammer? Drives me up the wall.nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
TKF said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Plus it's a health hazard. In northern Europe, there are many cases of Islamic women dressed as ninjas suffering from vitamin D deficiency. The sunlight here isn't like the sunlight in Saudi. You need more exposure to it.
Brilliant.Well it's clear for me to see that you're just worried about their health and you are in no way scared/intimidated by seeing different people/cultures.
Given that I live in West London, if I was scared/intimidated by different people and cultures, I'd be trapped indoors all day.
That's a very lazy accusation. People that are too cowardly to confront the s
t aspects of certain cultures always hide behind this nonsense. Accusations of latent racism. And you ignore the fact that many Muslims despise the veil. Are they scared of different cultures? Tell me, are you as keen to defend gypsy culture in the same way you defend the more ridiculous aspects of Muslim culture. Are you ok with their culture of taking kids out of school at 11, getting the girls married off at 16, girls stuck at home cleaning all day with no chance of self improvement.
Eclassy said:
supersingle said:
I'm not sure what this woman was doing at the opera considering that music is considered haram under Islam and is banned in Saudi Arabia.
Music itself is not haram. Its the music put together with several musical instruments.The opera is more like a nasheed.
Maybe the woman in question didn't want to face the consequences of being recognised.
jesta1865 said:
wolves_wanderer said:
jesta1865 said:
how would i know how much safer people would feel, the feedback i get from day to day living is that it worries people, that other people have their faces covered in one form or another.
nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
What the hell have Isis got to do with anything? I don't want to live in a country that sticks its nose into peoples lives any more than necessary. There is no good reason for banning a form of dress that, although ridiculous to my eyes and probably offensive, is completely harmless. Why is the answer always to reach for the banhammer? Drives me up the wall.nothing to do with my beliefs, and all to do with peoples perceived safety, just because you think it's some draconian measure doesn't make it a) true or b) bad, that's in your opinion.
you mentioned one part of our culture demonising another, i merely pointed out that if ISIS got their way, we'd lose our vote, all females would be in full covered mode and we'd all have to go to friday payers. there are people in this country that would demand the same / support them. so to me it's relevant whether you like it or not.
i'd lose my life as an atheist. i'm not intolerant but if i'm not i want others to be just as tolerant and that doesn't seem to be the case
wolves_wanderer said:
You don't have an answer then.
I would question your assertion that the complete covering of someone, rendering them anonymous and making it hard for other people to communicate with them, is "harmless".As human animals that need to communicate and interact with each other. it seems to be it has the potential to be very harmful indeed.
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