Oxymoronic French law on veils raises its head again...
Discussion
FredClogs said:
I don't know about you but I would definitely get raped by the women in my office if I wasn't covered up!
FWIW I'm not even sure that is covered by statute, doesn't it just come under indecency laws, I mean you can go buff in some places.
I, too, am covered up for my own safety. FWIW I'm not even sure that is covered by statute, doesn't it just come under indecency laws, I mean you can go buff in some places.
But, seriously, I don't care about the legal details. We are very tolerant in this regard, far more tolerant than any Muslim country, but you can find the limits if you push it. So what? Many good things would become bad things if taken to stupid extremes. So there are limits even to good things, like tolerance. That is not a logical paradox for nerdy Guardian readers to get their spotty little Mr. Logic heads in a twist over.
Kermit power said:
Gargamel said:
Please suggest an alternative
If you can prove she's being forced to wear it against her will, then prosecute the person forcing her.If you can't, or even more so she can prove that it's her choice, then who is the French government to interfere?
My son would claim that I force him to eat Broccoli. That doesn't mean that broccoli should be banned, as some people actually choose to eat it of their own free will.
FredClogs said:
And the limit to your tolerance is really breached by a women wearing a hood and covering her face? Really? What is it about a women covering her face that is so intolerable to you?
It's not me; I don't care(*). I was merely pointing out to Captain Spock that a limit to tolerance is not some logical divide by zero. It is the limit to France's tolerance, that's all.* I don't wish to live in one of our Muslim enclaves either, but you can move. For now.
Liokault said:
Kermit power said:
Gargamel said:
Please suggest an alternative
If you can prove she's being forced to wear it against her will, then prosecute the person forcing her.If you can't, or even more so she can prove that it's her choice, then who is the French government to interfere?
My son would claim that I force him to eat Broccoli. That doesn't mean that broccoli should be banned, as some people actually choose to eat it of their own free will.
wolves_wanderer said:
Liokault said:
Kermit power said:
Gargamel said:
Please suggest an alternative
If you can prove she's being forced to wear it against her will, then prosecute the person forcing her.If you can't, or even more so she can prove that it's her choice, then who is the French government to interfere?
My son would claim that I force him to eat Broccoli. That doesn't mean that broccoli should be banned, as some people actually choose to eat it of their own free will.
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil. Those who do are either being forced to, or have had their brain addled by years of exposure to a patriarchal religion.
Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Don't think I disagree with you because I don't, but are we not confident enough to have our beliefs mocked? I'd rather be part of a society that is better by example rather than showing it is wrong to dictate dress by, erm, dictating dress.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil. Those who do are either being forced to, or have had their brain addled by years of exposure to a patriarchal religion.
Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
Which doesn't avoid the oxymoron of responding to people being forced to dress a certain way by passing legislation forcing people to dress a certain way.Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
It's just weak and lazy legislation which attacks the symptom whilst ignoring the cause.
Do you honestly think women who were previously truly being forced to wear the sack in public are now happily trundling around bare-headed? Or do you accept that at least some proportion of them just won't be allowed out in public any more?
Kermit power said:
My son would claim that I force him to eat Broccoli. That doesn't mean that broccoli should be banned, as some people actually choose to eat it of their own free will.
Actually, you ARE forcing him to eat it against his will. Blame gene TAS2R38.He will grow out of it but it's the gene that wants him dislike bitter things, so that when he first started crawling and walking, he would spit out bitter berries etc. you know, toddlers putting everything in their mouth. In the same way that the bitterness part of the tongue only fully develops at the same time a toddler starts to be able to crawl/walk.
Torturer!
I absolutely adore broccolli goodness BTW! Food of tge gods with melted butter and a touch of cracked black pepper!
TwigtheWonderkid said:
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil. Those who do are either being forced to, or have had their brain addled by years of exposure to a patriarchal religion.
Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
You would only be breaking public decency laws or public order offences by getting your cock out or writing Tunisia is an Islamic country, and they banned the veil for years. Because they knew it was nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the subjugation of women.
Also, we have many laws on public dress in the UK. I couldn't walk around with the c word in large letters on my t shirt, or with my cock out. Because it's offensive to the majority of people. So is the veil. Women died in the UK fighting for equality, and many men support that equality. It's offensive to the UK population to see that mocked by idiots wearing the veil.
Some of the most vociferous opponents of the veil are muslim, who don't wish to see their religion portrayed in such a negative way by a stupid ill educated minority.
France are absolutely right to ban it in public, and it's high time we followed suit.
on your t shirt or forehead, I wore a Nirvana t shirt with motherfker written on it fir much of the early nineties with little objection other than from my nan , no laws exist telling people specifically what they can/can't wear. It's truly ironic that a vehemently anti religious person who decries the draconian nature of religion should wish to express his own will onto others in such draconian ways. Life must be very confusing for you.In the end though this is about what you believe as a society and the values you should have. I have always admired strongly secular states. I think it shows a confidence and a definite view that state and belief are not compatible.
France has done well to set out its own terms for its citizenry, if Moslems don't agree then they should campaign to change the law, just as any minority in a democracy is able to do.
Democracy is and should be about the majority prevailing view, minorities should be protected when threatened, but the tail must never wag the dog.
Wierdly, and I suppose inevitably after an Anglican upbringing, I like the ritual and solemnity of the Anglican Church, I share very few of its views, but I am comfortable that most of it's beliefs are more like guidelines anyway. So I have no issue really with our Monarch also being Head of the Church, since it all kind of hangs together in an odd. eccentric but not unpleasant way.
France has done well to set out its own terms for its citizenry, if Moslems don't agree then they should campaign to change the law, just as any minority in a democracy is able to do.
Democracy is and should be about the majority prevailing view, minorities should be protected when threatened, but the tail must never wag the dog.
Wierdly, and I suppose inevitably after an Anglican upbringing, I like the ritual and solemnity of the Anglican Church, I share very few of its views, but I am comfortable that most of it's beliefs are more like guidelines anyway. So I have no issue really with our Monarch also being Head of the Church, since it all kind of hangs together in an odd. eccentric but not unpleasant way.
TKF said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil.
Ever been for a night out in Newcastle on a cold Autumn evening? No woman in their right mind would dress like that. It must be men forcing them, right?rollondeath said:
TKF said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil.
Ever been for a night out in Newcastle on a cold Autumn evening? No woman in their right mind would dress like that. It must be men forcing them, right?TwigtheWonderkid said:
No woman in their right mind would wear a full face veil.
Frankly, it wouldn't bother me. Hanging out of your arse hungover? Can't be bothered with hair and make-up? Bad hair day?
The burkha solves all of these daily dilemmas, moreover you wouldn't have men leering at you.
BJG1 said:
Yes but the issue is that those wearing them aren't really doing so out of what I'd call 'choice' they are doing it as a result of the systematic oppression of women in their culture. How many atheists cover their faces in public?
A generation or two ago in the UK many adults didn't considered themselves properly dressed unless they were wearing a hat or a scarf. Were they oppressed or backward thinking? Or is the difference between us and them just a trivial change in taste? We seem to assume that if someone does something that we would prefer not to do, then it can only be out of ignorance or coercion. That is a rather solipsistic outlook. Concern that people might be being oppressed is a good thing. An assumption that people ought to be just like us and conform in trivial matters like taste in clothes is not.
And add the OP already said, isn't it rather naive to think that banning the wearing of a veil is going to influence how a chauvinist behaves?
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