Discussion
Baryonyx said:
Interesting thought process, but where has the moral high ground got us? The population there are still making efforts to direct terror attacks on our home soil. The troops have been in the desert for over a decade, hamstrung by these ROE that make them look like scared boyscouts in front of an enemy that considers them an invader.
Are they? When was the last time the UK was attacked by an Afghan national? When was the first time, in fact? And the ROE are more than acceptable in allowing us to have effect against the Taliban. I imagine that having never been there you'll be fully au fait with the different ROE available.
Baryonyx said:
This marine was placed in a difficult situation, knowing that the injured man, if saved, would probably continue to wage war against him. I agree that there is no place for rule breakers. It appears what is really needed is a change to ROE/Geneva Convention or whatever it will take to allow for the disposal of injured and incapacitated combatants - that would level the playing field, as if you're captured by the enemy out there you can be certain you won't be coming back. I suppose it gives the Taliban some comfort, to know we must play by the rules and they can do what they like.
ETA: I think any serving military personnel would do well not to sign that petition, imagine if it got back to your boss that your name was on the list of supporters? I imagine punishment for not toeing the party line would swiftly follow.
The marine was placed in a difficult situation that many, many, other soldiers have found themselves in- However most make the correct and legal choice of not murdering someone. ETA: I think any serving military personnel would do well not to sign that petition, imagine if it got back to your boss that your name was on the list of supporters? I imagine punishment for not toeing the party line would swiftly follow.
And if you're suggesting that we alter the Geneva Conventions and IHL to say that it's legal to murder someone then I suggest you give your head a wobble. Heaven forbid that you or one of your loved ones ever ends up wounded or captured and requiring the protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions. It may be war but we still have morals, even if you don't.
As for signing the list- just because someone is serving doesn't mean we're not entitled to an opinion, we can vote as well, you know.
Other than that, I'm stepping away from this. It's black and white. He knew the law, he broke it, he got caught.
REALIST123 said:
Joey Ramone said:
There's a lot of thick people out there with zero ethics
.
There certainly are, and most of them are waging jihad against us. Frankly, I don't care what our soliders do with them..
Maybe 'our' 'ethics' are why they manage to maintain their efforts seemingly indefinitely?
That's what wins wars, and we'll be a better country for it.
He knew the rules. He decided to break the rules and commit murder. He got caught.
However, more importantly, he got caught because he was stupid enough to admit to it on camera!
So no, I won't sign because he is a murderer plain as. Furthermore, I wouldn't want a subordinate commander (SNCO) who displays that level of breathaking arrogant stupidity.
However, more importantly, he got caught because he was stupid enough to admit to it on camera!
So no, I won't sign because he is a murderer plain as. Furthermore, I wouldn't want a subordinate commander (SNCO) who displays that level of breathaking arrogant stupidity.
I will not sign this... he was put into a situation where a lot(myself included) have been. Yes he did what 99.9% of us all would have liked to do, but, that does not excuse murder.
He knew what he was doing and played up to the act with his little rendition of Shakespeare "Shuffle off this mortal coil". Then actually saying something like "this goes nowhere lads, I just broke the Geneva Convention."
The only people I have sympathy for are his family and his unit that have been tarnished with what he has done (even if they are cabbage heads
)
He is where he deserves to be, there is no room in the mob for murderous animals with no morals.... otherwise, what are we fighting for?
He knew what he was doing and played up to the act with his little rendition of Shakespeare "Shuffle off this mortal coil". Then actually saying something like "this goes nowhere lads, I just broke the Geneva Convention."
The only people I have sympathy for are his family and his unit that have been tarnished with what he has done (even if they are cabbage heads
)He is where he deserves to be, there is no room in the mob for murderous animals with no morals.... otherwise, what are we fighting for?
Joey Ramone said:
His chain of command created an environment within the unit whereby it was considered acceptable by members of that unit to execute a prisoner of war.
Put it this way. When people within the RM spoke to me about the incident, and knowing who the CO was, they simply said 'Well, with him in charge, something like that was always going to happen'
There was also a high profile resignation within the RM over the fact that no-one else was deemed culpable, when in fact they should have been sanctioned.
I'm sorry? I don't ever remember even getting a hint that I must kill my prisoners.Put it this way. When people within the RM spoke to me about the incident, and knowing who the CO was, they simply said 'Well, with him in charge, something like that was always going to happen'
There was also a high profile resignation within the RM over the fact that no-one else was deemed culpable, when in fact they should have been sanctioned.
There's a lot of people signing this, under the idea that they are supporting the military.
Here's an 81 page thread on the general "mood" on the biggest UK Armed Forces forum-
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/petition-...
"Supporting the military" in that context is exactly the opposite of how the UK's Armed Forces feel.
Here's an 81 page thread on the general "mood" on the biggest UK Armed Forces forum-
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/petition-...
"Supporting the military" in that context is exactly the opposite of how the UK's Armed Forces feel.
TheEnd said:
There's a lot of people signing this, under the idea that they are supporting the military.
Here's an 81 page thread on the general "mood" on the biggest UK Armed Forces forum-
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/petition-...
"Supporting the military" in that context is exactly the opposite of how the UK's Armed Forces feel.
I initially joined the face book group that is behind this campaign. However after educating myself on the facts of the case and seeing how many anti Islamic, right winger EDL, BNP types were part of it, if not behind it, I left. Nutters the lot of them, and all claiming to represent the military!Here's an 81 page thread on the general "mood" on the biggest UK Armed Forces forum-
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/petition-...
"Supporting the military" in that context is exactly the opposite of how the UK's Armed Forces feel.
Joey Ramone said:
Zoobeef said:
I'm sorry? I don't ever remember even getting a hint that I must kill my prisoners.
It wasn't a hint to kill. It was an atmosphere that allowed a casual appreciation of the laws of armed conflict and the importance of observing them. Why are people always looking for someone else to blame?
Edited by Zoobeef on Thursday 23 October 14:32
Zoobeef said:
Joey Ramone said:
Zoobeef said:
I'm sorry? I don't ever remember even getting a hint that I must kill my prisoners.
It wasn't a hint to kill. It was an atmosphere that allowed a casual appreciation of the laws of armed conflict and the importance of observing them. Why are people always looking for someone else to blame.
Zoobeef said:
The fact that you get it gets hammered home time and time again about following the rules or face the consequences? Or did I do I different optag and pre deployment training to the rest of the unit?
Why are people always looking for someone else to blame.
There's a difference between sitting in a classroom getting this sWhy are people always looking for someone else to blame.
t thrown at you via powerpoint, and a CO who actually believes, in theatre, that it should influence how the tactical battle is managedThat's all I'm saying on this because of my professional proximity to certain individuals who were involved, and besides which the court has made its decision. But back to the original point, no he shouldn't be freed before his sentence has been completed.
Joey Ramone said:
There's a difference between sitting in a classroom getting this st thrown at you via powerpoint, and a CO who actually believes, in theatre, that it should influence how the tactical battle is managed
That's all I'm saying on this because of my professional proximity to certain individuals who were involved, and besides which the court has made its decision. But back to the original point, no he shouldn't be freed before his sentence has been completed.
Being part of the same unit, company and area as Sgt blackman on herrick 14 everyone else managed to toe the line. You can't blame the CO when someone does their own thing.t thrown at you via powerpoint, and a CO who actually believes, in theatre, that it should influence how the tactical battle is managedThat's all I'm saying on this because of my professional proximity to certain individuals who were involved, and besides which the court has made its decision. But back to the original point, no he shouldn't be freed before his sentence has been completed.
Joey Ramone said:
That's all I'm saying on this because of my professional proximity to certain individuals who were involved, and besides which the court has made its decision.
A very wise decision in my opinion. The internet has eyes.These idiots can influence your career long after the event. I could write reams about a certain high ranking ex bomb disposal idiot officer who often appeared on TV (my last CO) but don't for that very reason. I did however tell him on my retirement and farewell interview that I would always follow him into battle out of curiosity alone! Mind you I retired 7 years ago so screw him! The man was a penis. Put it this way if he was a horse I would not breed from him.
Grumfutock said:
Zoobeef said:
Joey Ramone said:
Zoobeef said:
I'm sorry? I don't ever remember even getting a hint that I must kill my prisoners.
It wasn't a hint to kill. It was an atmosphere that allowed a casual appreciation of the laws of armed conflict and the importance of observing them. Why are people always looking for someone else to blame.
Last time we had this discussion i don't think a single serving member (or ex-member) of the forces spoke up in his defence (me included).
Its no different to a police officer wounding an armed robber, then once incapacitated dragging the crook to a quiet spot and finishing him off.
He is a murderer and is where he belongs.
Its no different to a police officer wounding an armed robber, then once incapacitated dragging the crook to a quiet spot and finishing him off.
He is a murderer and is where he belongs.
It wasn't like the Sergeant had just lead his men into a hail of gunfire and the guy threw his hands up to surrender at the last moment. The guy had been previously shot by an Apache, offered no resistance and was their prisoner. They then discussed how to kill him, tried to cover it up and admitted what he had done was in breach of the geneva convention. I can't imagine how an illegal killing could be any more clear cut in a war zone.
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