Facebook pay no Corporation Tax AGAIN
Discussion
waterwonder said:
This, as the UK has lower tax rates than most other large western economies we should be near the back of the queue when it comes to whinging about this sort of thing.
Criticising US corporations for using (legal) tax structures in Ireland is a complete hypocrisy when as a nation we encourage multi-nationals to do the exact same thing but using the UK to dodge higher taxes elsewhere.
The clamour by idiots to end tax competition between countries makes me laugh. For some reason they seem to imagine that if other people pay more they will pay less. Yeah of course thats how it works.Criticising US corporations for using (legal) tax structures in Ireland is a complete hypocrisy when as a nation we encourage multi-nationals to do the exact same thing but using the UK to dodge higher taxes elsewhere.
Foliage said:
Hackney said:
Foliage said:
Its the government that's the problem not the corporations.
Corporations = Make as much profit as possible
This Government = Look after mates who run corporations so they can make as much profit as possible
Which one is failing in their remit?
Fixed that for you.Corporations = Make as much profit as possible
This Government = Look after mates who run corporations so they can make as much profit as possible
Which one is failing in their remit?
Imagine there was a way that every single one of us could set up their affairs so they paid zero tax, and we did it. Nobody would be breaking the law, and you could argue that the government hasn't lost any revenue as they were never "entitled" to it, but the gov't collect ZERO taxes. What sort of mess would we be in?
fblm said:
The clamour by idiots to end tax competition between countries makes me laugh. For some reason they seem to imagine that if other people pay more they will pay less. Yeah of course thats how it works.
That had never crossed my mind, whatever other reason would individuals have to complain?Hi Mr. Average wage earner, FB have just paid their corp tax, you don't have to pay this year...
CamMoreRon said:
BGARK said:
Of which they paid tax on no doubt, and purchased, and consumed goods within the UK, that are all... taxed.
Oh yeah, trickle-down wealth...of course...Encouraging politicians to spend less by not giving them what they had no rights to in the first place is a wonderful thing.
turbobloke said:
OK, in which case unless HMRC don't accept that position, no corptax is due.
If HMRC want to fight it, they can. I imagine if they do, and the ultimate decision is that there is UK profit to be taxed, then FB will pay. At the moment the position would appear to be lawful which is all that matters.
At least the government can't waste what it never had.
I wonder...I worry that since the rules changed and now HMRC can just take money out of the bank accounts of people they think owe more tax (e.g those individuals utilising tax avoidance structures - one's HMRC haven't even proved work or not (despite all the rulings against the HMRC position...)) - well I worry they'll now do the same for companies too.If HMRC want to fight it, they can. I imagine if they do, and the ultimate decision is that there is UK profit to be taxed, then FB will pay. At the moment the position would appear to be lawful which is all that matters.
At least the government can't waste what it never had.
I mean the former is bad enough for entrepreneurialism (and total tax take...)in the UK....but to do the latter too, would wreak havoc on the economy (and total tax receipts) as companies move away.
DonnyMac said:
fblm said:
The clamour by idiots to end tax competition between countries makes me laugh. For some reason they seem to imagine that if other people pay more they will pay less. Yeah of course thats how it works.
That had never crossed my mind, whatever other reason would individuals have to complain?Hi Mr. Average wage earner, FB have just paid their corp tax, you don't have to pay this year...
turbobloke said:
As opposed to trickle-up taxes where FB turned the government's tap off.
Encouraging politicians to spend less by not giving them what they had no rights to in the first place is a wonderful thing.
Yes, truly wonderful for the privileged, the selfish, and the greedy.. not so wonderful for the rest.Encouraging politicians to spend less by not giving them what they had no rights to in the first place is a wonderful thing.
CamMoreRon said:
BGARK said:
Of which they paid tax on no doubt, and purchased, and consumed goods within the UK, that are all... taxed.
Oh yeah, trickle-down wealth.. of course.. Why do you think the movie business is doing so well in the UK at the moment?
CamMoreRon said:
turbobloke said:
As opposed to trickle-up taxes where FB turned the government's tap off.
Encouraging politicians to spend less by not giving them what they had no rights to in the first place is a wonderful thing.
Yes, truly wonderful for the privileged, the selfish, and the greedy.. not so wonderful for the rest.Encouraging politicians to spend less by not giving them what they had no rights to in the first place is a wonderful thing.
Nor do the wealthy, who are net contributors anyway.
Selfish and greedy people occur in all walks of life.
CamMoreRon said:
You're right, of course - it is the government who allow this to happen by leaving the loopholes open - but this is clearly a problem that has arisen through choices FB have made, setting up their affairs in such a way that they can exploit the holes in the law. I think blame lies squarely on both sides.
Imagine there was a way that every single one of us could set up their affairs so they paid zero tax, and we did it. Nobody would be breaking the law, and you could argue that the government hasn't lost any revenue as they were never "entitled" to it, but the gov't collect ZERO taxes. What sort of mess would we be in?
I cant blame a company for prioritising their primary corporate goal 'make profit' above all else. Is it their responsibility to volunteer the tax or the governments to take it? If the government wants the money it should make damn well sure that it can guarantee it can take it. They haven't so they cant.Imagine there was a way that every single one of us could set up their affairs so they paid zero tax, and we did it. Nobody would be breaking the law, and you could argue that the government hasn't lost any revenue as they were never "entitled" to it, but the gov't collect ZERO taxes. What sort of mess would we be in?
Anything you read on corporate websites or anywhere about ethics, enviroments, sustainability, quality, service etc is just marketing, all they want or care about is profit, nothing else matters, sweatshops, wage slaves, monopolies, price fixing etc happen because the companies who do it can get away with it, its profits that matter and these things bother me more (and are illegal in the UK) than a company following a legal route to minimise its tax liability.
Foliage said:
I cant blame a company for prioritising their primary corporate goal 'make profit' above all else. Is it their responsibility to volunteer the tax or the governments to take it? If the government wants the money it should make damn well sure that it can guarantee it can take it. They haven't so they cant.
Anything you read on corporate websites or anywhere about ethics, enviroments, sustainability, quality, service etc is just marketing, all they want or care about is profit, nothing else matters, sweatshops, wage slaves, monopolies, price fixing etc happen because the companies who do it can get away with it, its profits that matter and these things bother me more (and are illegal in the UK) than a company following a legal route to minimise its tax liability.
Oh god that's so depressing. Anything you read on corporate websites or anywhere about ethics, enviroments, sustainability, quality, service etc is just marketing, all they want or care about is profit, nothing else matters, sweatshops, wage slaves, monopolies, price fixing etc happen because the companies who do it can get away with it, its profits that matter and these things bother me more (and are illegal in the UK) than a company following a legal route to minimise its tax liability.
No, you're right.. profit is the #1 goal so yeah I can understand the "what do you expect?" argument completely. I just don't like it. As you said, nothing else matters, so if a company can get away with certain behaviour then it will. But that's why I think outrage from people who disagree with it is incredibly important (and why I get so outraged about it) - if nobody says anything then they just continue to act how they want and the people continue to get f****d.
CamMoreRon said:
Foliage said:
I cant blame a company for prioritising their primary corporate goal 'make profit' above all else. Is it their responsibility to volunteer the tax or the governments to take it? If the government wants the money it should make damn well sure that it can guarantee it can take it. They haven't so they cant.
Anything you read on corporate websites or anywhere about ethics, enviroments, sustainability, quality, service etc is just marketing, all they want or care about is profit, nothing else matters, sweatshops, wage slaves, monopolies, price fixing etc happen because the companies who do it can get away with it, its profits that matter and these things bother me more (and are illegal in the UK) than a company following a legal route to minimise its tax liability.
Oh god that's so depressing. Anything you read on corporate websites or anywhere about ethics, enviroments, sustainability, quality, service etc is just marketing, all they want or care about is profit, nothing else matters, sweatshops, wage slaves, monopolies, price fixing etc happen because the companies who do it can get away with it, its profits that matter and these things bother me more (and are illegal in the UK) than a company following a legal route to minimise its tax liability.
No, you're right.. profit is the #1 goal so yeah I can understand the "what do you expect?" argument completely. I just don't like it. As you said, nothing else matters, so if a company can get away with certain behaviour then it will. But that's why I think outrage from people who disagree with it is incredibly important (and why I get so outraged about it) - if nobody says anything then they just continue to act how they want and the people continue to get f****d.
That appears to be the case but if not, you will issue a correction for sure
If any anger is called for, get angry with politicians for setting the rules, and/or HMRC for their part and how they implement the rules.
However there are many benefits (no pun intended) in having businesses wanting to locate here and operate here even if profits occur and are taxed in other jurisdictions, and those benefits definitely go well beyond one percent of the population.
CamMoreRon said:
I don't know about others, but I imagine that when corporations are made to pay tax on their actual profits in this country (i.e. without the obscurity of high rate charges to themselves driving down reported profits) there won't be the same crippling squeeze on public services, and maybe some actual investment on infrastructure without the usual furore about how we can't afford it, rather than saving a couple of £ a month myself.
fblm said:
CamMoreRon said:
I don't know about others, but I imagine that when corporations are made to pay tax on their actual profits in this country (i.e. without the obscurity of high rate charges to themselves driving down reported profits) there won't be the same crippling squeeze on public services, and maybe some actual investment on infrastructure without the usual furore about how we can't afford it, rather than saving a couple of £ a month myself.
from me too.Look at the tax inversion 'merger' deals which US businesses have been pushing through recently, and the fact Fiat Chrysler are moving their merged head office to London to save on US and Italian tax.
The public likes to get morally outraged, especially at the kind of businesses the more left leaning dislike (Starbucks, Facebook, Amazon, Google etc) but in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the UK as a whole would end up worse off were the rules to become more rigid.
CamMoreRon said:
I don't know about others, but I imagine that when corporations are made to pay tax on their actual profits in this country (i.e. without the obscurity of high rate charges to themselves driving down reported profits) there won't be the same crippling squeeze on public services, and maybe some actual investment on infrastructure without the usual furore about how we can't afford it, rather than saving a couple of £ a month myself.
No, because our outrage will be mirrored by (for example) the French and the Americans, who will ask us to repatriate taxes paid here to avoid their higher rates. It's not a one sided equation.You could certainly look to tighten up the rules on things like transfer pricing, and there are various efforts to do so, but it's naive to think we could implement such changes without other countries making the same demands in the opposite direction. I very much doubt HMRC would see any net benefit. There's also the extra compliance costs to consider, which would legitimately erode any profits you were seeking to tax in the first place.
CamMoreRon said:
Oh god that's so depressing.
No, you're right.. profit is the #1 goal so yeah I can understand the "what do you expect?" argument completely. I just don't like it. As you said, nothing else matters, so if a company can get away with certain behaviour then it will. But that's why I think outrage from people who disagree with it is incredibly important (and why I get so outraged about it) - if nobody says anything then they just continue to act how they want and the people continue to get f****d.
No one I know paid more than they had to in tax last year, if they did it was by accident and they will be reclaiming it as soon as they realise. No, you're right.. profit is the #1 goal so yeah I can understand the "what do you expect?" argument completely. I just don't like it. As you said, nothing else matters, so if a company can get away with certain behaviour then it will. But that's why I think outrage from people who disagree with it is incredibly important (and why I get so outraged about it) - if nobody says anything then they just continue to act how they want and the people continue to get f****d.
I'm livid.
Mrr T said:
Before posting there links can you please try to get a basic understanding of tax and finance.
Corporation tax is paid on profits not turnover.
I am not sure of Facebooks business structure but I do know it changes its users nothing. So all Facebook revenue comes from advertisers. So if Facebook servers are based Ireland and a UK company pays for an advert. The revenue is in Ireland the fact a user in the UK sees the advert is nothing to do with it.
As for the salaries I think you will find these are mainly share bonuses based on performance of the share price, and of cause are all subject to UK income tax.
Going by Op's previous threads, the answer to your first question is a stoical 'no'.Corporation tax is paid on profits not turnover.
I am not sure of Facebooks business structure but I do know it changes its users nothing. So all Facebook revenue comes from advertisers. So if Facebook servers are based Ireland and a UK company pays for an advert. The revenue is in Ireland the fact a user in the UK sees the advert is nothing to do with it.
As for the salaries I think you will find these are mainly share bonuses based on performance of the share price, and of cause are all subject to UK income tax.
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