Done Better than Expected - That will be £1.7bn then - WTF!

[Welshbeef]

The thing is to choose you're battles bend over as and when but then hold firm where it counts.


Interesting its only those who are getting a rebate are saying shut up Cameron.... Isn't that because its a vested interest?

[Einion Yrth]

unrepentant said:

I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years.

So scarcely a dispassionate observer.

[powerstroke]

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

Why then the constant self destruct mode over the EU
Why wasnt it put to bed once and for all with a referendum years ago!!
Why style over substance??? CMD v Davis
Why just why????

Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 25th October 08:01

Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 25th October 08:03

[JagLover]

Welshbeef said:

Do you and others want to buy Mercs BMW Audi Ferrari Lambo Porsche lots will and even though we have Aston and Vauxhall they don't really compare do they...


Hard engineering
Think KONE, Otis, Schneider. Schindler, clevett these lot make closed protocal lifts escalators top end and best chillers UPS etc. So we will have to buy from them.

Wine? Sure English make cracking wine but we don't make the quantity to offset the EU
Cheese hmm we make good cheddar not Brie blue etc
White goods
- Bosch, Smeg,siemans,Miele, Beko, neff
Best leather - Italian
Best fashion - Italian
Really good beer - Belgium - though we have great ale and cider

Granite work tops/ceramic sinks in tops etc

Pork - we physically don't have anywhere near enough pigs to cater for our consumption


So no we couldn't just stop buying from them without huge consequences
If they stopped buying from us - which they wouldn't but the cost to buy from is would be higher so less competitive that's the key.

Virtually all the Vauxhalls we buy now are rebadged Opels. We run a trade deficit with the EU so it is their interests as much as ours to negotiate a decent trade agreement should we ever part ways.

I'm not saying leaving the EU wouldn't be economically difficult, but keeping our net contribution will help ease the paid of transition, and it will not be an economic cataclysm in the short term and medium term might even benefit us.

[Puggit]

Esseesse said:

I agree. I think Mr Barroso seems ok, I just dont agree with him. I trust him more than Cameron.

You might want to read up on his political history. The man has a history of supporting Maoist and Communist ideals. He is not a man to be trusted and is part of the anti-democracy movement within the EU.

[JagLover]

unrepentant said:

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

I think the MPs are becoming more Eurosceptic over time as well. Look at the views of the 2010 intake for example.

Yes the Tories were the pro-European party in the 70s and 80s, that doesn't mean they are now.

[Collectingbrass]

So the Treasury / UK Govt have changed its methodology for measuring the size of its economy this year. (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29757296) This leads to a demand for an additional payment that could and should have been foreseen by HMG and dealt with by negiotiation over the detail. If Osborne and CMD missed this on their horizon they should go.

However the demand for £1.7 billion lands at the same time as the Rochester and Strood by election is due and 6 months before the General Election, giving CMD his Thatcher in Brussels moment and putting one over on UKIP. And we're supposed to believe they didnt plan this? Pull the other one.

[NicD]

Collectingbrass said:

So the Treasury / UK Govt have changed its methodology for measuring the size of its economy this year. (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29757296) This leads to a demand for an additional payment that could and should have been foreseen by HMG and dealt with by negiotiation over the detail. If Osborne and CMD missed this on their horizon they should go.

your link doesn't work.
Is this what you are talking about?
EU officials called it an effect of a once-in-a-generation review of how national incomes are calculated, which found Britain was richer than it had previously declared.

Officials at EU statistics office Eurostat said that was a result mainly of taking more account of money flowing in 2002-09 to non-profit organisations ranging from churches and universities to trade unions, charities and sports clubs.

However, governments have little awareness of how other states may be amending their income calculations until the data is put together by Eurostat in the final weeks, leaving the size of any budget adjustment open to potential surprises.

I can see any mention of 'Treasury / UK Govt have changed its methodology'

[Welshbeef]

Given no Scottish Pro Yes supporter has posted on here in guessing they are not that keen on chipping in the additional tax hike they really need.



Actually the UK Govt should either force through a one off cut or a one off additional fuel price rise to mitigate this additional cost. We should not borrow for our superior wealth.

[Croutons]

And what single item are you proposing we cut in the next 5 weeks which will result in£1.7bn being immediately available?

[unrepentant]

JagLover said:

unrepentant said:

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

I think the MPs are becoming more Eurosceptic over time as well. Look at the views of the 2010 intake for example.

Yes the Tories were the pro-European party in the 70s and 80s, that doesn't mean they are now.

Absolutely. By the end of the 70's most Tories saw what Heath had signed them up to and didn't like it. Labour began to see that the EU was a socialist nirvana and embraced it. It was the Eurosceptic wing of the party that caused such issues for Major. Cameron is like Blair, he will sway with the breeze. He's also a middle of the road social democrat, just like Blair. You guys need to grab hold of the party at its base if you want it to reflect your views. That's easy to do because hardly anyone belongs to the party and the members select candidates and even choose the leader!

[Welshbeef]

Croutons said:

And what single item are you proposing we cut in the next 5 weeks which will result in£1.7bn being immediately available?

I'm not I'm proposing a tax rise - up VAT by the relevant amount job done.

[arp1]

If you earn more you pay more tax, isn't that how it works?

[Steffan]

unrepentant said:

JagLover said:

unrepentant said:

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

I think the MPs are becoming more Eurosceptic over time as well. Look at the views of the 2010 intake for example.

Yes the Tories were the pro-European party in the 70s and 80s, that doesn't mean they are now.

Absolutely. By the end of the 70's most Tories saw what Heath had signed them up to and didn't like it. Labour began to see that the EU was a socialist nirvana and embraced it. It was the Eurosceptic wing of the party that caused such issues for Major. Cameron is like Blair, he will sway with the breeze. He's also a middle of the road social democrat, just like Blair. You guys need to grab hold of the party at its base if you want it to reflect your views. That's easy to do because hardly anyone belongs to the party and the members select candidates and even choose the leader!

Neither of the main parties (currently) in the UK want to face resignation from the EU at all. Both are dishonestly pretending they can negotiate better deals. They cannot in reality. As UKIP Remind them. So many of the EU states require a big money pit to provide the funds for Solcialist politicians to milk the system as they do currently. Whilst the UK is locked into the EU there will be no lessening of the EU demands. In fact a number of other countries including Scandanavia and Holland are seriously unhappy with the cost and direction of the EU currently.

Just as rewarding lazy no hopers with excessive benefits has destroyed much of the work ethic in the UK and elsewhere so rewarding Socilaist France and other with lots of lovely subsidy to allow them to ruin their economy must in the end destroy France and the other gravy train subsidy collectors within the EU.

It is possible that UKIP will swing enough of the votes in the forthcoming by elections and then in 2015 poll enough support to seriously challenge the status quo in the UK politically. Without such a change I do not think any withdrawal from the EU will even be discussed by the political boys club that runs the UK currently. Personally I think that would be a disaster for the UK.

However unless the game changes politically Cameron's promise is just so much hot air. It will not happen. Cameron is not a man of principle. He swings with whatever he thinks will serve him best and serves his own agenda. Unless he sees the downside risk of not accepting the consequences of remaining within the EU there is no way that referendum will occur in any meaningful form. Watered down with a nonsense question possiblly. Otherwise no way.

The latest EU demand has added a certain amount of spice to the pressure on UK politicians. They will fail to deal with this just as they have failed to deal with most of the real problems of the UK. In fact there will be further financial demands from the EU this year as the UK economy recovers. Unless UK voters want to be subsidising half the EU where Socilism is rife permanently for absolutely no advantage exiting from the EU support scheme and EU membership is paramount. But as yet the UK politicians will not accept this. It will be interesting to see how this actually develops.

There needs to be a realisation in UK politics that over borrowing and spending and sod tomorrow knowing vull well that the unaffordable debt is pushed onto later generations is not actually an adult approach to economics. Hasnt happened as yet. Might if UKIP singe enough political tail feathers.

[PRTVR]

arp1 said:

If you earn more you pay more tax, isn't that how it works?

But normally the tax goes to pay for things like the NHS, but this goes to pay for the French health service. But if the you are happy with that you can pay my share also.

[Scuffers]

PRTVR said:

arp1 said:

If you earn more you pay more tax, isn't that how it works?

But normally the tax goes to pay for things like the NHS, but this goes to pay for the French health service. But if the you are happy with that you can pay my share also.

more likely the French Farmers

EU single biggest expense is the CAP, France is the greatest beneficiary of this.

[anonymous-user]

JagLover said:

unrepentant said:

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

I think the MPs are becoming more Eurosceptic over time as well. Look at the views of the 2010 intake for example.

Yes the Tories were the pro-European party in the 70s and 80s, that doesn't mean they are now.

Not so long ago as the 70's, it was the Tories who tried to join the Euro in the late Eighties, driving the country into deep recession to stay in the ERM which ultimately lead to black Wednesday and finally getting kicked out in '92. At the time it was assumed by most that it was only a matter of time before you would try again. It was Brown, to his credit (did I really just say that), not the Tories who finally quashed that stupid idea only in the early 2000's.

[Scuffers]

Welshbeef said:

Croutons said:

And what single item are you proposing we cut in the next 5 weeks which will result in£1.7bn being immediately available?

I'm not I'm proposing a tax rise - up VAT by the relevant amount job done.

I really hate VAT

way I see it, you either have taxation on income/proffits/etc, or on sales/duty/etc, but not both.

at the moment, when you by things like petrol, you paying:

Income tax
NI
Duty
VAT

on an pure efficiency of taxation basis, that's nutts

[XJ Flyer]

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

Do they really expect anyone to believe that the rank and file of the Cons just make the mistake of sending MP's into parliament who are implementing different policies to those which the rank and file put them into office to carry out.

As opposed to a party which,like its Libdem partners,says one thing at local level to get those representives elected,while having a totally opposite agenda when they get into power on the back of those lies fed to the electorate.

http://robertsaunders.wdfiles.com/local--files/bri...

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 25th October 14:49

[XJ Flyer]

powerstroke said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.

Why then the constant self destruct mode over the EU
Why wasnt it put to bed once and for all with a referendum years ago!!
Why style over substance??? CMD v Davis
Why just why????

Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 25th October 08:01

Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 25th October 08:03

We did have a referendum years ago when the Cons joined the pro EU side of the Labour Party and threw out Powell in the process.

According to the Cons propaganda they actually all wanted Davis but voted for Cameron by mistake.Just as they did with Powell when they voted for Maggie by mistake.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 25th October 14:42