Rich Socialists - do as I say, not as I do
Discussion
LucreLout said:
crankedup said:
Well I didn't accuse you of being an ex Union man, just as well perhaps. Still curious to understand where your apparent hatred of Socialists (none left TBH in the U.K.)has arisen from.
That I've watched socialists destroy every successful industry we ever had probably features as a reason.
That the hypocrisy of them all makes me sick sure is a reason (see bono, Blair, brand et al).
That their lack of even a basic economic understanding causes so much pain to the people they claim to represent is a reason.
That they lie to working men, with sincerity, is a reason. Labour MPs of the last government weren't fit to lick the s
t off my old shifts boots. That's a reason.I've got a lot of reasons to hate socialists I'm afraid. All based on experience, their behaviour, and their near universal lack of honour.
I hope that doesn't offend you. It wasn't intended to, but you did ask!
ETA: I'm no fan of the current lot either by the way... But at least they get basic economics and that spares those at the bottom of the stack a lot of pain.
I'd actually have voted for Alex Salmond given the chance as I figure he was the best politician of his era, even if he was dishonest over the referendum... They all were.
Edited by LucreLout on Thursday 30th October 17:13
Thatcher was a very strong willed P.M. however she did create a huge Social divide within the Country, one that, partially, still exists, certainly when her name is mentioned. She had a huge element of good fortune during her terms of office, the Falklands conflict and North Sea oil to name the most fortuitous elements. But the rot set into industrial Britain long before her time with the 'sat back on laurels' stupidity of Management in so many industries post war onwards. That together with over powerful Unions and short-sighted Government Policies done for us imo.
Now we are all lumbered with truly lightweight incompetent politicians of all colours looking forward to lining their own nests.
As for 'champagne Socialists', many do contribute from their personal wealth not always in financial terms either. Like my 'banker bashing' so much gets tarred with the same big brush.
Rude-boy said:
Gift of 1/2 share of property between the children on death of first parent was quite common until 2007 as said.
What few people talk about is what happens when, after first death, one of the children divorces from their spouse and then that share of mummy and daddy's house forms part of the matrimonial pot for division...
As tax avoidance goes it's really, really small beer and not even walking the line but well inside the rules.
I was no Benn fan, his wife didn't think much of his politics either FWIW, but frankly it's a no brainer.
This 'problem' of divorce and inheritance can be annulled with pre-nuptials prior to weddings. What few people talk about is what happens when, after first death, one of the children divorces from their spouse and then that share of mummy and daddy's house forms part of the matrimonial pot for division...
As tax avoidance goes it's really, really small beer and not even walking the line but well inside the rules.
I was no Benn fan, his wife didn't think much of his politics either FWIW, but frankly it's a no brainer.
Just one point.
crankedup said:
Thatcher was a very strong willed P.M. however she did create a huge Social divide within the Country, one that, partially, still exists...
Inequality was worse under Labour than under Thatcherwolves_wanderer said:
turbobloke said:
Good to see that PH socialists are afraid of owning the term, pretending it doesn't exist is like pretending Bliar isn't a hypocrite along with many a champagne socialist.
Nice to see that I have been declared a socialist by no lesser authority than Turbobloke, I'm honoured.
I seem to recall that I was labelled a Socialist for not being UKIP, though not by your good self.
All anyone can say is, if the cap fits.
Countdown said:
Anybody who isn't UKIP is a PH Socialist
wolves_wanderer said:
magine using your skills to become an MP, gaining promotion to lead a left-wing party, taking the risk of moving it to the right to the extent where you are "intensely relaxed about people becoming filthy rich". Surely everyone but the somewhat overpopulated PH 'kipper tendency will say "well done"
Well done for being on top of a steaming pile of deception?!Clearly we won't agree
but anyway...'The Third Way' with 'New' Labour. This was spin, the first drops of snake oil designed to placate enough socialists who knew what would happen and to gull enough sheeple to get Bliar elected and then re-elected. The ludicrous unachievable marxist stuff was dropped tactically to create a veneer of electability, sure enough the sheeple bleated and the red flag was sung in office a few times. Sufficient socialism was alive and well to nearly kill the country 1997-2010. Throughout that time with education, health, wealth and tax it was "do as I say not as I do" as expected from the typical hypocrisy of the left. Now we see the 'principled' Benn was in on it, and the last figleaf has blown away to reveal Balls and a plonker.
Digga said:
crankedup said:
As for 'champagne Socialists', many do contribute from their personal wealth not always in financial terms either.
They may well do, but that hardly equates to "from each according to ability, to each according to needs".As with most things in life there is a spectrum of views/attitudes/beliefs.
DocJock said:
Sorry to burst your bubble of ignorance, but he was travelling between two places of work. His constituency and Parliament, so he wasn't 'travelling to work' in the way you imply.
Any working person doing the same will claim this as an expense.
Sorry to disappoint your Utopian dream, and if I misunderstand your point I apologise in advance, any working person would indeed do the same and claim it on expenses. However, two things:Any working person doing the same will claim this as an expense.
1. An MP gets his full expenses (and then some) paid directly to him/her.
2. A 'working person' claims against his income tax on production of invoices - but only if he is self-employed (from memory Schedule E?).
Very few employers pay travelling expenses for normal duties. Most people can't see that an MP's duties at Westminster are abnormal/special whether they are socialist or anything else. It's a racket.
Thorodin said:
Sorry to disappoint your Utopian dream, and if I misunderstand your point I apologise in advance, any working person would indeed do the same and claim it on expenses. However, two things:
1. An MP gets his full expenses (and then some) paid directly to him/her.
2. A 'working person' claims against his income tax on production of invoices - but only if he is self-employed (from memory Schedule E?).
Very few employers pay travelling expenses for normal duties. Most people can't see that an MP's duties at Westminster are abnormal/special whether they are socialist or anything else. It's a racket.
Schedule E is PAYE. You're thinking of Schedule D.1. An MP gets his full expenses (and then some) paid directly to him/her.
2. A 'working person' claims against his income tax on production of invoices - but only if he is self-employed (from memory Schedule E?).
Very few employers pay travelling expenses for normal duties. Most people can't see that an MP's duties at Westminster are abnormal/special whether they are socialist or anything else. It's a racket.
MPs are employees and, like all PAYE employees, that's why they get their expenses reimbursed to them by their employer. Selef employed people dont have a permanent employer and that's why they can't reclaim their expenses through their pay.
FWIW self-employed people have far more leeway in claiming expenses than PAYE people.
Countdown said:
Thorodin said:
Very few employers pay travelling expenses for normal duties.
If it's work related then they should.Digga said:
N one is allowed to claim for travelling expenses incurred between home and their place of work. One could argue, at some length, the definition of the latter term with regard to politicians.
It depends on what HMRC classes as their home, their permanent base, and their temporary base. If you are home based all mileage is claimable.Countdown said:
Digga said:
N one is allowed to claim for travelling expenses incurred between home and their place of work. One could argue, at some length, the definition of the latter term with regard to politicians.
It depends on what HMRC classes as their home, their permanent base, and their temporary base. If you are home based all mileage is claimable.Digga said:
Hence why I said "at some length". One could argue - and I realise HMRC currently do not, but we are talking theory here - that being an MP is, in fact, a job with two places of work; constituency and Westminster.
Exactly - 2 permanent places of work, hence travel to either from home is normal commuting, and not a business expense. Which everyone, apart from MPs, would be subject to.turbobloke said:
['The Third Way' with 'New' Labour. This was spin, the first drops of snake oil designed to placate enough socialists who knew what would happen and to gull enough sheeple to get Bliar elected and then re-elected. The ludicrous unachievable marxist stuff was dropped tactically to create a veneer of electability, sure enough the sheeple bleated and the red flag was sung in office a few times. Sufficient socialism was alive and well to nearly kill the country 1997-2010. Throughout that time with education, health, wealth and tax it was "do as I say not as I do" as expected from the typical hypocrisy of the left. Now we see the 'principled' Benn was in on it, and the last figleaf has blown away to reveal Balls and a plonker.
All spot on. I wonder if the leftie voter is beginning to realise Labour exist only to keep them in their place, so as to maintain a foolish voter base to be conned into voting for them - it looks as if the Scotch have sussed them out...however, that oily creature Salmond won't do them any good either - will they ever really learn?Edited by Guybrush on Friday 31st October 14:00
wsurfa said:
Exactly - 2 permanent places of work, hence travel to either from home is normal commuting, and not a business expense. Which everyone, apart from MPs, would be subject to.
If the two places are considered "permanent" by HMRC then the payments would be taxed. There is no exemption for MPs. What makes you think MPs are exempt from HMRC rules?
Countdown said:
wsurfa said:
Exactly - 2 permanent places of work, hence travel to either from home is normal commuting, and not a business expense. Which everyone, apart from MPs, would be subject to.
If the two places are considered "permanent" by HMRC then the payments would be taxed. There is no exemption for MPs. What makes you think MPs are exempt from HMRC rules?
If an employee is made redundant then from what I'd read previously the first £30k of redundancy pay i.e. severance pay is tax free, but an MP who remains in office for one term and then gets booted out by voters is entitled to a tax-free severance sum of 50% of their salary, which is significantly over £30k at current rates even for back bench fodder.
It would be no surprise to find other special treatments and maybe some exemptions.
Countdown said:
Schedule E is PAYE. You're thinking of Schedule D.
MPs are employees and, like all PAYE employees, that's why they get their expenses reimbursed to them by their employer. Selef employed people dont have a permanent employer and that's why they can't reclaim their expenses through their pay.
FWIW self-employed people have far more leeway in claiming expenses than PAYE people.
There does seem to be some confusion, probably with the terms used. You mention 'working people' in relation to "like all PAYE employees" and I assume 'working people' to mean people who work for an employer and who are, say, factory, office, shop or garage based. I don't know what your experience of such jobs is but those 'working people' do not get paid for travel to and from their place of work either in money or time allowance! They are paid when they are at their work place until they leave it! Self employed workers either charge in their rates for their time/travel or are blessed with an expense allowance, usually mileage/fuel used and have to produce invoices/tickets etc to justify claims. There is absolutely no comparison with MP's. MPs are employees and, like all PAYE employees, that's why they get their expenses reimbursed to them by their employer. Selef employed people dont have a permanent employer and that's why they can't reclaim their expenses through their pay.
FWIW self-employed people have far more leeway in claiming expenses than PAYE people.
turbobloke said:
Countdown said:
wsurfa said:
Exactly - 2 permanent places of work, hence travel to either from home is normal commuting, and not a business expense. Which everyone, apart from MPs, would be subject to.
If the two places are considered "permanent" by HMRC then the payments would be taxed. There is no exemption for MPs. What makes you think MPs are exempt from HMRC rules?
If an employee is made redundant then from what I'd read previously the first £30k of redundancy pay i.e. severance pay is tax free, but an MP who remains in office for one term and then gets booted out by voters is entitled to a tax-free severance sum of 50% of their salary, which is significantly over £30k at current rates even for back bench fodder.
It would be no surprise to find other special treatments and maybe some exemptions.
TTwiggy said:
turbobloke said:
Countdown said:
wsurfa said:
Exactly - 2 permanent places of work, hence travel to either from home is normal commuting, and not a business expense. Which everyone, apart from MPs, would be subject to.
If the two places are considered "permanent" by HMRC then the payments would be taxed. There is no exemption for MPs. What makes you think MPs are exempt from HMRC rules?
If an employee is made redundant then from what I'd read previously the first £30k of redundancy pay i.e. severance pay is tax free, but an MP who remains in office for one term and then gets booted out by voters is entitled to a tax-free severance sum of 50% of their salary, which is significantly over £30k at current rates even for back bench fodder.
It would be no surprise to find other special treatments and maybe some exemptions.
Even so, with your wise words as a catalyst I managed to recall this...which definitely involves a tie of one particuar colour and it happens to be red.
Former Mr Speaker Gorbals Mick said:
I didn't come into politics not to take what's owed to me
Which included a severance package on favourable tax terms. Hope that's OK He clearly didn't 'need' it and without looking I would surmise that ol'Gorbals wasn't too keen on tax avoidance except in his own case.
Thorodin said:
There does seem to be some confusion, probably with the terms used. You mention 'working people' in relation to "like all PAYE employees" and I assume 'working people' to mean people who work for an employer and who are, say, factory, office, shop or garage based. I don't know what your experience of such jobs is but those 'working people' do not get paid for travel to and from their place of work either in money or time allowance! They are paid when they are at their work place until they leave it!
The important bit is "to and from their permanent place of work". Nobody is entitled to get paid (tax free) expenses for travelling to and from their permanent place of work. If, by some chance, their employer is generous enough to reimburse them then they have to payment is taxable and NI'able. Are MP's receiving reimbursement for expenses incurred whilst travelling between their "home" and their designated permanent place of employment?Thorodin said:
Self employed workers either charge in their rates for their time/travel or are blessed with an expense allowance, usually mileage/fuel used and have to produce invoices/tickets etc to justify claims. There is absolutely no comparison with MP's.
MPs will also be required to submit expense claims/receipts when claiming travel expenses. Just as most employees do.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff