Putin:- Playtime is over.....
Discussion
Octoposse said:
tands to reason that anyone who doesn't see the world your way, is the product of two thousand years of culture and history that is different to yours, is by definition either brainwashed, stupid, or - more likely - both. Stands to reason really.
Even this is rubbish. Current Russian government thinking is not the outcome of 2000 years of different cultural development from the rest of the planet. If you look at the history of say England, Greece, Italy, Russia and Germany over the last 2000 years you cannot possibly conclude that there is some great gulf that uniquely separates Russia from the rest ... that it has some special destiny, some inherently different path. Half the problem Russia seems to have is that it thinks it's special, that its voice as a nation (whatever a national voice is even supposed to mean) deserves to be heard more loudly than other peoples. To be clear, Western governments do not claim that right for themselves, so anyone who thinks they're going to bestow it on anyone else is deeply confused. XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
ATG said:
... that there is some great gulf that uniquely separates Russia from the rest ... that it has some special destiny, some inherently different path. Half the problem Russia seems to have is that it thinks it's special, that its voice as a nation (whatever a national voice is even supposed to mean) deserves to be heard more loudly than other peoples. To be clear, Western governments do not claim that right for themselves, so anyone who thinks they're going to bestow it on anyone else is deeply confused.
American Exceptionalism and manifest destiny are on line one for you, sir. They say it's important.Mastodon2 said:
jsf said:
That's a neat trick, he died over 3 years ago.
He did, and they still pulled it down because the current CEO of Apple is a gay, and that means Apple are not a company of virtue, in the eyes of the Russians.scherzkeks said:
American Exceptionalism and manifest destiny are on line one for you, sir. They say it's important.
American exceptionalism, French exceptionalism, British exceptionalism are roundly criticised on the few occasions where it is tried. And none of these countries ever says "you have no right to comment, you're trying to meddle in our internal matters". They are open to discussion. In any case, assuming you object to, say, US exceptionalism, I assume you wouldn't be daft enough to us it to try to justify Russian exceptionalism? Either the plea to exceptionalism is reasonable or it is unreasonable.
The sense of a US destiny is a product of its expansion to the west during the 19th century in particular and the fact that it is a nation of immigrants with little shared history; their idea of nationhood has traditionally been based on thinking about future development rather than a deep cultural national past. They don't use this idea of destiny as way of excluding other people or saying they are inherently different or saying it gives the US special rights. It's not an exceptionalist outlook; if it is to be criticised, it would be for failing to appreciate that anyone else could possibly not really think the same way. It's a bit parochial.
XJ Flyer said:
So having gone from a situation in which marriage between same sex couples would probably have meant prosecution under the law to now calling on the church to marry such couples.Are the Brits now saying that we should also go to war with Russia just because they choose to disagree within their own borders.On the same basis that the Brits now consider any such type of thinking as the same as what Hitler did.
Yes, that's a precise interpretation of what mastadon just said. Well done. Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
XJ Flyer said:
So having gone from a situation in which marriage between same sex couples would probably have meant prosecution under the law to now calling on the church to marry such couples.Are the Brits now saying that we should also go to war with Russia just because they choose to disagree within their own borders.On the same basis that the Brits now consider any such type of thinking as the same as what Hitler did.
much logic. such think.ATG said:
And none of these countries ever says "you have no right to comment, you're trying to meddle in our internal matters". They are open to discussion.
Absolute nonsense in that your core assertion is patently false. The Russians are open to discussion, despite that fact that the initial aggression was Western based. ATG said:
In any case, assuming you object to, say, US exceptionalism, I assume you wouldn't be daft enough to us it to try to justify Russian exceptionalism? Either the plea to exceptionalism is reasonable or it is unreasonable.
I am American and find it endlessly amusing. Particularly the deranged need to remind ourselves in every speech, baseball game, national holiday, etc. that we are the greatest nation on earth. This simple bit of rhetoric alone provides keen insight into the mass delusion and psyche of the average American. Exceptionalism is a universally unreasonable plea, particularly if it is used to justify violence or the forced acquiescence of another group to a particular way of life.
ATG said:
They don't use this idea of destiny as way of excluding other people or saying they are inherently different or saying it gives the US special rights. It's not an exceptionalist outlook; if it is to be criticised, it would be for failing to appreciate that anyone else could possibly not really think the same way. It's a bit parochial.
Absolute nonsense. Paragraph nine is of particular relevance to this discussion: http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/ninetee...scherzkeks said:
I am American and find it endlessly amusing. Particularly the deranged need to remind ourselves in every speech, baseball game, national holiday, etc. that we are the greatest nation on earth. This simple bit of rhetoric alone provides keen insight into the mass delusion and psyche of the average American.
Exceptionalism is a universally unreasonable plea, particularly if it is used to justify violence or the forced acquiescence of another group to a particular way of life.
Ironically America having done exactly that within its own borders in 1861.Assuming that the US couldn't find a way to let the CSA secede from the Union without taking the use of force option and still thinks that was right,then it is obvious that its foreign policy will also always contain that same historic flaw.Exceptionalism is a universally unreasonable plea, particularly if it is used to justify violence or the forced acquiescence of another group to a particular way of life.
However having said that sometimes it takes that type of logic to defeat people like Hitler etc.In which case that ( albeit flawed ) ideology has on balance been more a force for good in the world than bad.
The difference in this case being that Russia under Putin's leadership seems to be all about looking after its own arguably legitimate national interest without bothering us to any large degree.While what hostility there is seems to be more about 'the west' trying to move its sphere of influence onto Russia's turf and telling Russians what to do and how to think,not vice versa.
That link is talking about the 19th century. The conceit of modern America is merely that it thinks itself a great example for the rest of the world. It's hardly unique in that outlook. Trying to draw parallels between expansionist thinking in the 19th century with overblown Ronald Reagan speeches is going to fail. One was about expansion of a nation, a century later it was about the triumph of a set of ideals.
As for the Russian government being open for discussion, I assume that's why they have clamped down on opposition parties, undermined the free press, effectively kicked out any NGOs that were trying to support the development of civil society and have state press and TV that churns out propoganda? And when NGOs criticise the lack of a free press, the corrupt court system, the human rights abuses and the response is "none of your business" ... that would be engaging in a discussion?
XJ Flyer said:
So having gone from a situation in which marriage between same sex couples would probably have meant prosecution under the law to now calling on the church to marry such couples.Are the Brits now saying that we should also go to war with Russia just because they choose to disagree within their own borders.On the same basis that the Brits now consider any such type of thinking as the same as what Hitler did.
I see where you got your reputation as such a moron.XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
Mastodon2 said:
XJ Flyer said:
So having gone from a situation in which marriage between same sex couples would probably have meant prosecution under the law to now calling on the church to marry such couples.Are the Brits now saying that we should also go to war with Russia just because they choose to disagree within their own borders.On the same basis that the Brits now consider any such type of thinking as the same as what Hitler did.
I see where you got your reputation as such a moron.XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
XJ Flyer said:
Mastodon2 said:
XJ Flyer said:
So having gone from a situation in which marriage between same sex couples would probably have meant prosecution under the law to now calling on the church to marry such couples.Are the Brits now saying that we should also go to war with Russia just because they choose to disagree within their own borders.On the same basis that the Brits now consider any such type of thinking as the same as what Hitler did.
I see where you got your reputation as such a moron.Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
Zod said:
XJ Flyer said:
DMN said:
Transmitter Man said:
Oil price will be kept low, the king of Saudi does not fart without first getting permission from the US.
The NY Times has hinted that the US and Saudi are waging economic war agianst Russia and Syria. They broke Russia once, they'll do it again.Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 4th November 14:43
It's funny, but I seem to remember the US and the West doing rather well and the Soviet Union doing rather badly in the economic "war" of the 1980s.
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