Why the UKIP will never work....
Discussion
sidicks said:
Yazar said:
All this 'the richest x % pay the x% of all the tax' is rubbish. We have a system where low wages/zero hour contracts are supplemented by the state through additional benefits raised by those same taxes which could have been given in salary in the first place.
Additionally, the government taxes minimum wage workers and then (often) needs to give some of that money back - why not just not tax them in the first place?? The minimum wage would be at or above the living wage if the government didn't tax these workers so heavily in the first place!
Does any party have a manifesto full of policies that are thoroughly thought out and costed? And even if they did the costings and thinkings would be based on assumptions which may not hold true.
Pre election pledges are more like a sales pitch - in car terms "no need to raise taxes" equates to "about 30mpg if you take it easy." You know straight away that taxes will go up just as you know that while 30mpg is possible downhill with a tail wind 20 is more likely.
They're only useful if you read between the lines to get an idea of what and how the parties think. Just as the man selling the 30mpg barge is giving the game away with the optimistic fuel consumption that he used on his wife when he bought the car and is using on potential buyers now.
I'll go for whichever party seems most interested in reducing the size and scope of the state and so far that seems like UKIP.
Pre election pledges are more like a sales pitch - in car terms "no need to raise taxes" equates to "about 30mpg if you take it easy." You know straight away that taxes will go up just as you know that while 30mpg is possible downhill with a tail wind 20 is more likely.
They're only useful if you read between the lines to get an idea of what and how the parties think. Just as the man selling the 30mpg barge is giving the game away with the optimistic fuel consumption that he used on his wife when he bought the car and is using on potential buyers now.
I'll go for whichever party seems most interested in reducing the size and scope of the state and so far that seems like UKIP.
rs1952 said:
Well you'd be saving me a job 
When I read the UKIP manifesto posted on this thread yesterday, my initial thought was to pick it apart line by line. The I decided that life was probably too short to bother posting something that was only going to get the odd rolleyes smilie and a few insults from the usual suspects.
So I shall just say this - Manifesto pledges which appear might save some money:
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only
Manifesto pledges that are likely to cost money and, in some cases, rather a lot of it (those are emboldened below)
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court
First of all the personal allowance will rise to some extent anyway due to inflation and UKIP is not alone in proposing a significant increase but seems to be unique in proposing some concrete policies to pay for it. When I read the UKIP manifesto posted on this thread yesterday, my initial thought was to pick it apart line by line. The I decided that life was probably too short to bother posting something that was only going to get the odd rolleyes smilie and a few insults from the usual suspects.
So I shall just say this - Manifesto pledges which appear might save some money:
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only
Manifesto pledges that are likely to cost money and, in some cases, rather a lot of it (those are emboldened below)
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court
Your bolded statement regarding prisoner sentences does not take into account any savings from lower crime.
sidicks said:
FredClogs said:
Of course changing to a flat tax system from our current one is regressive, it would increase the burden on the lowest incomes whilst reducing the tax burden on the highest earners, unless the exchequer is content with taking a massive reduction in the overall amount collected. Any system which assumes everyone pay the same rate regardless of their wealth is designed only to help the wealthy and hence the poor poorer.
We have a staggered tax system, as does every developed nation, because it prevents run away wealth at the top end and in a democracy that will always be supported.
This is now a moot conversation as I've already been corrected that even UKIP policy makers have seen the error of their own stupidity and removed the suggestion from their manifesto (even if some of their boys on here seem still willing to support the idea).
Everyone doesn't pay the same rate though due to the tax free allowance, so once again you are wrong.We have a staggered tax system, as does every developed nation, because it prevents run away wealth at the top end and in a democracy that will always be supported.
This is now a moot conversation as I've already been corrected that even UKIP policy makers have seen the error of their own stupidity and removed the suggestion from their manifesto (even if some of their boys on here seem still willing to support the idea).
It seems you are desperate for the lowest paid workers to pay income tax and then need an inefficient benefits system to top up those wages, creating an inevitable poverty trap and costly administration burden.
I'm not sure how you can support this...
I'm desperate for a system where the poorest people in society are protected under the rule of a democratic system, not one which is designed to enrich the already wealthy. You may have a paranoid view of how our state is legislated and the balance of power within our rule making system, you may have the typical Kipper xenophobia and think that our country is being run by some pinko liberal lefty Euro elite that want to do nothing other than raise the living standards of them outside the UK whilst punishing the hardworking entrepreneurial east end barrow boys who make this fine nation what it is... But I'd rather have that than the vision of a small cabal of public school privileged and wealthy industrialists.
Do you even support the minimum wage at all? Do you support the ideal of the NHS? Do you believe that corruption, administrative waste and poor decisions only occur in the public sector? Do you think fraud on the state would disappear if only we just taxed the rich a little less.
FredClogs said:
Whilst you're correct the allowance creates an effective staggered rate it makes vanishingly little difference as income rises, unless you're prepared to set the personal allowance at somewhere near the median average salary.
At last....FredClogs said:
I'm desperate for a system where the poorest people in society are protected under the rule of a democratic system, not one which is designed to enrich the already wealthy.
And yet you appear determined to support a system that enforces a significant tax burden at the lowest income earners....FredClogs said:
You may have a paranoid view of how our state is legislated and the balance of power within our rule making system, you may have the typical Kipper xenophobia and think that our country is being run by some pinko liberal lefty Euro elite that want to do nothing other than raise the living standards of them outside the UK whilst punishing the hardworking entrepreneurial east end barrow boys who make this fine nation what it is... But I'd rather have that than the vision of a small cabal of public school privileged and wealthy industrialists.
As ever, what you think the stand for and what UKIP actually stand for are two wildly different things..FredClogs said:
Do you even support the minimum wage at all? Do you support the ideal of the NHS?
Of course, so do most people. But taxing the minimum wage is stupid. And the NHS need to be better managed and focussed on doing core things better (and not doing some things altogether) rather than repeatedly having greater and greater funds thrown at it,FredClogs said:
Do you believe that corruption, administrative waste and poor decisions only occur in the public sector?
In general I don't have to pay for corruption and waste in the private sector, except by choice...FredClogs said:
Do you think fraud on the state would disappear if only we just taxed the rich a little less.
Tax fraud is minimal in the scheme of things. But clearly if the tax was lower, fraud would reduce to some extent.As I said before, apply reasonable tax rates and spend that money sensibly and few of the rich would object to those taxes...
Edited by sidicks on Monday 24th November 13:38
JagLover said:
rs1952 said:
Well you'd be saving me a job
When I read the UKIP manifesto posted on this thread yesterday, my initial thought was to pick it apart line by line. The I decided that life was probably too short to bother posting something that was only going to get the odd rolleyes smilie and a few insults from the usual suspects.
So I shall just say this - Manifesto pledges which appear might save some money:
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only
Manifesto pledges that are likely to cost money and, in some cases, rather a lot of it (those are emboldened below)
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court
First of all the personal allowance will rise to some extent anyway due to inflation and UKIP is not alone in proposing a significant increase but seems to be unique in proposing some concrete policies to pay for it. When I read the UKIP manifesto posted on this thread yesterday, my initial thought was to pick it apart line by line. The I decided that life was probably too short to bother posting something that was only going to get the odd rolleyes smilie and a few insults from the usual suspects.
So I shall just say this - Manifesto pledges which appear might save some money:
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only
Manifesto pledges that are likely to cost money and, in some cases, rather a lot of it (those are emboldened below)
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court
Your bolded statement regarding prisoner sentences does not take into account any savings from lower crime.
JagLover said:
Your bolded statement regarding prisoner sentences does not take into account any savings from lower crime.
Exactly. Get all perpetually offending career criminals behind bars and crime would be a fraction of what it currently is. A "three strike" system would SAVE the country money even if it meant doubling or trebling prison places. Not to mention the un-quantifiable benefit of a society where everyone enjoys the right to feel safe from crime.HonestIago said:
JagLover said:
Your bolded statement regarding prisoner sentences does not take into account any savings from lower crime.
Exactly. Get all perpetually offending career criminals behind bars and crime would be a fraction of what it currently is. A "three strike" system would SAVE the country money even if it meant doubling or trebling prison places. Not to mention the un-quantifiable benefit of a society where everyone enjoys the right to feel safe from crime.Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
FredClogs said:
What like in the crime free USA?
Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
...because of course the UK is exactly like the USA in every other regard. Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
HonestIago said:
FredClogs said:
What like in the crime free USA?
Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
...because of course the UK is exactly like the USA in every other regard. Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
sidicks said:
HonestIago said:
...because of course the UK is exactly like the USA in every other regard.
You're wasting your time with this one - he has blinkers on!rs1952 said:
I love it when somebody completely misses the irony in a statement
So you can sare with us your detailed calculations of the affordability ofthe manifesto / policy promises for all of the main parties?Or have you just provided a vague and frankly poor analysis of UKIP's key policies?
sidicks said:
rs1952 said:
I love it when somebody completely misses the irony in a statement
So you can sare with us your detailed calculations of the affordability ofthe manifesto / policy promises for all of the main parties?Or have you just provided a vague and frankly poor analysis of UKIP's key policies?
There is an old saying about what not to do when already in a hole
sidicks said:
rs1952 said:
What's "sare?"
There is an old saying about what not to do when already in a hole
You're the one that has made claims you don't appear prepared to support. I have not - you're the one in the hole!!There is an old saying about what not to do when already in a hole
I have "made claims" have I?
As I recall, I listed a number of UKIP policies that might save the Exchequer money - no "support" needed there - they come from UKIP's own manifesto
I also listed a number of UKIP policies that will cost the Exchequer some money - no "support" needed there - they come from UKIP's own manifesto
I then listed a number of UKIP policies that contradict each other and/or could not implement without the agreement of other countries - no "support" needed there - they come from UKIP's own manifesto
I finally listed a number of policies that would give the UK much the same international standing as Zimbabwe or North Korea. That might need a little more explanation. There are countries out there who are not too keen on human rights, and if the UK were to withdraw from any human rights convention, whether or not they replaced it with something else, I can't see the UK getting a credit for the replacement policies from the likes of North Korea, Zimbabwe, Russia or China, for example. Such countries would be spinning the line that the UK has finally come around to agreeing with them.
So, as you see, all I have done is list a number of UKIP's policies that come straight from their manifesto - nothing more, nothing less. In another post this afternoon you said "Or have you just provided a vague and frankly poor analysis of UKIP's key policies?"
As I provided only a list with little comment, no claims and no analysis, then it is difficult to make the charges of "made claims you can't support" and "poor analysis" stick because there were no claims and no analysis. Perhaps you meant UKIP's policies were poor and contained claims they can't support? Search me...
rs1952 said:
I have "made claims" have I?
As I provided only a list with little comment, no claims and no analysis, then it is difficult to make the charges of "made claims you can't support" and "poor analysis" stick because there were no claims and no analysis. Perhaps you meant UKIP's policies were poor and contained claims they can't support? Search me...
rs1952 said:
To make the books balance, I presume that he areas of cost savings work in a "Big Pound" unit of currency whilst the new expenditure areas have a "Little Pound" currency unit, because you ain't gonna make enough savings to pay for the additional expenditure otherwise.
And as for your ignorant claims about human rights, it's difficult to know where to start!Edited by sidicks on Monday 24th November 17:59
HonestIago said:
FredClogs said:
What like in the crime free USA?
Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
...because of course the UK is exactly like the USA in every other regard. Or like in the crime free USA would we just create a marketised for profit prison system, that afford a powerful political lobby and generates a self perpetuating positively fed back cash and politically rich "business" of punishment to society's poor and unfortunate?
Does locking more and more people up for longer and longer a la USA actually reduce crime? My interpretation of FC's post was that it doesn't reduce crime and in the UK it would cost £40,000 per annum for each prisoner.
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