Why the UKIP will never work....
Discussion
The whole deportation thing was only an own goal for UKIP because he said something in a way that it was just possible to quote in a bad light.
To put this in context, millions of people currently have the right to work in the UK through the EU freedom of movement regkme, and many are currently in the UK. If we withdraw from the EU and opt to control immigration from the EU this will beg the question of what we do about EU nationals already here, living and working. This ranges from my friend's French-Algerian grandmother who married an English soldier in 1946 and has lived in the UK ever since with French nationality, to the Romanian pimp serving time for armed robbery. There isn't any catch all answer. There is no obvious and clear point between those two extremes where one will be granted permission to stay and another will be refused.
The only sensible answer that can possibly be given is that the situation will be reviewed, a policy will be set and some forum will be designed to examine each of these complex cases on it's own merits.
Of course this would be a lousy quote for a headline hungry editor so you have to make the news.
In full the exchange went like this:
Q: ‘What would happen Mark Reckless if we left the European Union. What would happen for instance to the Polish plumber who lives in Rochester. Would he be able to stay, would he have to go back?’
Reckless: ‘Well, I think in the near term we’d have to have a transitional period, and I think we should probably allow people who are currently here to have a work permit at least for a fixed period.’
Q: ‘Forgive me, if there’s a Polish plumber who for instance has got a house, got a family, got kids at a local school, are you going to deport him and his family?’
Reckless: ‘I think people who have been here a long time and integrated in that way I think we’d want to look sympathetically at. But what we’d want to do is new people coming in [interrupted by laughs from the crowd]…what we’d want to do is to look at new people coming in and apply a consistent, Australian-style point system and the same to people coming from Europe as we do to those coming from say the Commonwealth, from Australia, Africa, India, the Caribbean. We shouldn’t have a discriminatory system which favours Europeans against people from the outside.’
Is that really the shocking quote a frothing at the mouth racist ready to tear families and communities apart out of pure prejudice?
To my mind it's an honest if ill thought out answer to a very complex question which doesn't have a 10 second soundbite answer.
The only rational answer is that we will set a policy and assess each case against it. Can he explain every nuance of that policy at the hustings? No. Can he decide the oucome of this hypothetical future visa application with no more information than some hypothetical Polish plumber with kids at a local school? Of course he can't.
I guess if he had been a Tory defending a policy of no change to a media which already knew the policy his party would pursue anyway and knew that he would have been drilled on them all already by an advisor, then he could have given a more polished answer but as things stand he gave an honest, rational and necessarily incomplete answer to a ludicrously vague question and a certain section of the media tried to make a story out of it.
I can find it in my generous heart to cut our diligent media and their allies in the political establishment enough slack to assume it mere coincidence that this unfortunate slip happened just in ttime to make the morning papers on the day before the election, but I can't really see the story itself as having any significance at all.
To put this in context, millions of people currently have the right to work in the UK through the EU freedom of movement regkme, and many are currently in the UK. If we withdraw from the EU and opt to control immigration from the EU this will beg the question of what we do about EU nationals already here, living and working. This ranges from my friend's French-Algerian grandmother who married an English soldier in 1946 and has lived in the UK ever since with French nationality, to the Romanian pimp serving time for armed robbery. There isn't any catch all answer. There is no obvious and clear point between those two extremes where one will be granted permission to stay and another will be refused.
The only sensible answer that can possibly be given is that the situation will be reviewed, a policy will be set and some forum will be designed to examine each of these complex cases on it's own merits.
Of course this would be a lousy quote for a headline hungry editor so you have to make the news.
In full the exchange went like this:
Q: ‘What would happen Mark Reckless if we left the European Union. What would happen for instance to the Polish plumber who lives in Rochester. Would he be able to stay, would he have to go back?’
Reckless: ‘Well, I think in the near term we’d have to have a transitional period, and I think we should probably allow people who are currently here to have a work permit at least for a fixed period.’
Q: ‘Forgive me, if there’s a Polish plumber who for instance has got a house, got a family, got kids at a local school, are you going to deport him and his family?’
Reckless: ‘I think people who have been here a long time and integrated in that way I think we’d want to look sympathetically at. But what we’d want to do is new people coming in [interrupted by laughs from the crowd]…what we’d want to do is to look at new people coming in and apply a consistent, Australian-style point system and the same to people coming from Europe as we do to those coming from say the Commonwealth, from Australia, Africa, India, the Caribbean. We shouldn’t have a discriminatory system which favours Europeans against people from the outside.’
Is that really the shocking quote a frothing at the mouth racist ready to tear families and communities apart out of pure prejudice?
To my mind it's an honest if ill thought out answer to a very complex question which doesn't have a 10 second soundbite answer.
The only rational answer is that we will set a policy and assess each case against it. Can he explain every nuance of that policy at the hustings? No. Can he decide the oucome of this hypothetical future visa application with no more information than some hypothetical Polish plumber with kids at a local school? Of course he can't.
I guess if he had been a Tory defending a policy of no change to a media which already knew the policy his party would pursue anyway and knew that he would have been drilled on them all already by an advisor, then he could have given a more polished answer but as things stand he gave an honest, rational and necessarily incomplete answer to a ludicrously vague question and a certain section of the media tried to make a story out of it.
I can find it in my generous heart to cut our diligent media and their allies in the political establishment enough slack to assume it mere coincidence that this unfortunate slip happened just in ttime to make the morning papers on the day before the election, but I can't really see the story itself as having any significance at all.
King 
said:
said:s2art said:
What sort of dumb question is that? The system would operate similarly to Australia's or Canada's, take a look at how they work.
No, it isn't a dumb question. Until UKIP nails down precisely the type of people it wishes to limit immigration to, it's immigration policy can't be assessed. Just saying it'll be 'like Canada's or Australia's is a cop out. It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
King said:
said:s2art said:
What sort of dumb question is that? The system would operate similarly to Australia's or Canada's, take a look at how they work.
No, it isn't a dumb question. Until UKIP nails down precisely the type of people it wishes to limit immigration to, it's immigration policy can't be assessed. Just saying it'll be 'like Canada's or Australia's is a cop out. It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
King said:
said: No, it isn't a dumb question. Until UKIP nails down precisely the type of people it wishes to limit immigration to, it's immigration policy can't be assessed. Just saying it'll be 'like Canada's or Australia's is a cop out.
It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
You have named yourself well!It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
a proclamation from a king or is it a
'It is time ....'NicD said:
King said:
said: No, it isn't a dumb question. Until UKIP nails down precisely the type of people it wishes to limit immigration to, it's immigration policy can't be assessed. Just saying it'll be 'like Canada's or Australia's is a cop out.
It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
You have named yourself well!It's time for UKIP to produce hard policy detail, not airy fairy wish lists.
a proclamation from a king or is it a
'It is time ....'Mr Whippy said:
They're winning seats all over based on their belief on a few core issues.
If they start appealing to 'everyone' on everything under the sun, then they stand for nothing but a big pile of turd, just like the Illiberal Democrats.
By definition Liberal Democrats would be the way I'd vote every day of the week. But they're not Liberal at all.
Own a car that uses a bit more petrol, but drive it rarely. EVIL, TAX YOU!
Own a nice big house and sacrifice nice holidays and nights out, EVIL, TAX YOU!
If UKIP fall into the idea of appealing to everyone, they'll also appeal to no one, just like all the current parties, which is why a party that IS standing up for something singular, leaving Europe, UKIP, were doing so well... up till now at least.
If the deviate too far from that then they're fooked imo.
Dave
that is the jist of what i was getting at,you put it across far better though. stick to a few well defined core issues,despite what the liblabcons say,the rest will generally look after itself,i mean,it is not like recent governments have actually stuck to pre election policy statements or budgets ,so why the need for ukip to come up with costings etc when the rest are living in the land of make believe anyway.If they start appealing to 'everyone' on everything under the sun, then they stand for nothing but a big pile of turd, just like the Illiberal Democrats.
By definition Liberal Democrats would be the way I'd vote every day of the week. But they're not Liberal at all.
Own a car that uses a bit more petrol, but drive it rarely. EVIL, TAX YOU!
Own a nice big house and sacrifice nice holidays and nights out, EVIL, TAX YOU!
If UKIP fall into the idea of appealing to everyone, they'll also appeal to no one, just like all the current parties, which is why a party that IS standing up for something singular, leaving Europe, UKIP, were doing so well... up till now at least.
If the deviate too far from that then they're fooked imo.
Dave
mrpurple said:
For you with your own agenda maybe but not for the thousands that are increasingly voting for UKIP... It's your problem if you can't asses it and the simple answer is..don't vote for them if you need it broken down in minute detail.
God forbid we hold St Nige to give us some detail on policy. I'm sure you'd be fine with any of the other 3 morons coming up with some airy drivel with no detail.wolves_wanderer said:
mrpurple said:
For you with your own agenda maybe but not for the thousands that are increasingly voting for UKIP... It's your problem if you can't asses it and the simple answer is..don't vote for them if you need it broken down in minute detail.
God forbid we hold St Nige to give us some detail on policy. I'm sure you'd be fine with any of the other 3 morons coming up with some airy drivel with no detail.AJS- said:
The whole deportation thing was only an own goal for UKIP because he said something in a way that it was just possible to quote in a bad light.
To put this in context, millions of people currently have the right to work in the UK through the EU freedom of movement regkme, and many are currently in the UK. If we withdraw from the EU and opt to control immigration from the EU this will beg the question of what we do about EU nationals already here, living and working. This ranges from my friend's French-Algerian grandmother who married an English soldier in 1946 and has lived in the UK ever since with French nationality, to the Romanian pimp serving time for armed robbery. There isn't any catch all answer. There is no obvious and clear point between those two extremes where one will be granted permission to stay and another will be refused.
The only sensible answer that can possibly be given is that the situation will be reviewed, a policy will be set and some forum will be designed to examine each of these complex cases on it's own merits.
Of course this would be a lousy quote for a headline hungry editor so you have to make the news.
In full the exchange went like this:
Q: ‘What would happen Mark Reckless if we left the European Union. What would happen for instance to the Polish plumber who lives in Rochester. Would he be able to stay, would he have to go back?’
Reckless: ‘Well, I think in the near term we’d have to have a transitional period, and I think we should probably allow people who are currently here to have a work permit at least for a fixed period.’
Q: ‘Forgive me, if there’s a Polish plumber who for instance has got a house, got a family, got kids at a local school, are you going to deport him and his family?’
Reckless: ‘I think people who have been here a long time and integrated in that way I think we’d want to look sympathetically at. But what we’d want to do is new people coming in [interrupted by laughs from the crowd]…what we’d want to do is to look at new people coming in and apply a consistent, Australian-style point system and the same to people coming from Europe as we do to those coming from say the Commonwealth, from Australia, Africa, India, the Caribbean. We shouldn’t have a discriminatory system which favours Europeans against people from the outside
If we're going to have an Australian type system then that would obviously include the possibility of retrosepctive re patriation assuming that anyone's work permit status changes.In this case EU withdrawal.To put this in context, millions of people currently have the right to work in the UK through the EU freedom of movement regkme, and many are currently in the UK. If we withdraw from the EU and opt to control immigration from the EU this will beg the question of what we do about EU nationals already here, living and working. This ranges from my friend's French-Algerian grandmother who married an English soldier in 1946 and has lived in the UK ever since with French nationality, to the Romanian pimp serving time for armed robbery. There isn't any catch all answer. There is no obvious and clear point between those two extremes where one will be granted permission to stay and another will be refused.
The only sensible answer that can possibly be given is that the situation will be reviewed, a policy will be set and some forum will be designed to examine each of these complex cases on it's own merits.
Of course this would be a lousy quote for a headline hungry editor so you have to make the news.
In full the exchange went like this:
Q: ‘What would happen Mark Reckless if we left the European Union. What would happen for instance to the Polish plumber who lives in Rochester. Would he be able to stay, would he have to go back?’
Reckless: ‘Well, I think in the near term we’d have to have a transitional period, and I think we should probably allow people who are currently here to have a work permit at least for a fixed period.’
Q: ‘Forgive me, if there’s a Polish plumber who for instance has got a house, got a family, got kids at a local school, are you going to deport him and his family?’
Reckless: ‘I think people who have been here a long time and integrated in that way I think we’d want to look sympathetically at. But what we’d want to do is new people coming in [interrupted by laughs from the crowd]…what we’d want to do is to look at new people coming in and apply a consistent, Australian-style point system and the same to people coming from Europe as we do to those coming from say the Commonwealth, from Australia, Africa, India, the Caribbean. We shouldn’t have a discriminatory system which favours Europeans against people from the outside
The fact is the pro immigration agenda that permeates every level of this country's government and the CBI means UKIP can't call for any immigration policy which includes any possility of retrospective re patriation,because of the precedent that sets regarding the status of every immigrant community and our ridiculous definition of nationality.
While it seems equally obvious that UKIP isn't about stopping the issue of over supply of the labour market by cheap immigrant labour.More like trying to attract the non EU immigrant vote who see EU immigration as being at the expense of yet more non EU immigration.
wolves_wanderer said:
mrpurple said:
For you with your own agenda maybe but not for the thousands that are increasingly voting for UKIP... It's your problem if you can't asses it and the simple answer is..don't vote for them if you need it broken down in minute detail.
God forbid we hold St Nige to give us some detail on policy. I'm sure you'd be fine with any of the other 3 morons coming up with some airy drivel with no detail.wolves_wanderer said:
mrpurple said:
For you with your own agenda maybe but not for the thousands that are increasingly voting for UKIP... It's your problem if you can't asses it and the simple answer is..don't vote for them if you need it broken down in minute detail.
God forbid we hold St Nige to give us some detail on policy. I'm sure you'd be fine with any of the other 3 morons coming up with some airy drivel with no detail.The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
FiF said:
Over on the UKIP thread some time ago I wrote out a very similar list that dropped through my letter box from my Conservative MP.
The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
I broadly agree with everything you say and would also classify myself as an independent, naturally right of centre voter. If UKIP are acting like some brave new wave of politics then I'm going to want some evidence that they are better or different to the rest. Not seeing it so far but I await the manifesto.The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
wolves_wanderer said:
If UKIP are acting like some brave new wave of politics then I'm going to want some evidence that they are better or different to the rest. Not seeing it so far but I await the manifesto.
It is difficult to see how UKIP can possibly be any different obviously being firstly lumbered with the UK federalist ideology which makes England a net contributor to the UK budget in just the same way as the EU one.Secondly an immigration policy which is set by the CBI being all about over supply of the labour market to keep wage levels lower than they would otherwise be.
Thirdly still being full on believers in the global free market economy wether in or out of the EU.UKIP shows all the signs of just another Party in which it is the CBI who run the country not the elected government.
wolves_wanderer said:
FiF said:
Over on the UKIP thread some time ago I wrote out a very similar list that dropped through my letter box from my Conservative MP.
The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
I broadly agree with everything you say and would also classify myself as an independent, naturally right of centre voter. If UKIP are acting like some brave new wave of politics then I'm going to want some evidence that they are better or different to the rest. Not seeing it so far but I await the manifesto.The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
mrpurple said:
wolves_wanderer said:
FiF said:
Over on the UKIP thread some time ago I wrote out a very similar list that dropped through my letter box from my Conservative MP.
The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
I broadly agree with everything you say and would also classify myself as an independent, naturally right of centre voter. If UKIP are acting like some brave new wave of politics then I'm going to want some evidence that they are better or different to the rest. Not seeing it so far but I await the manifesto.The difference from the UKIP list was that it was even more woolly and no details. Just a list of wishes, stuff like""We will make the NHS work better for you."
So give over about lack of detail unless all are held up to account equally.
Let's not forget that the Government /Coalition has access to far more information and resources than even HM Official Opposition. Who themselves get more information than any of the other parties with sitting MPs.
That's before you get to parties who don't have any MPs until the last few weeks.
An inconvenient truth but there it is. God forbid we should ask Dave what issues he intends to discuss in an EU renegotiation, for example. What issues he might regard as vital to obtain a successful result. Not chapter and verse of it line by line, but even a hint of where he stands. But nothing just asked to trust him.
He will find that trust is not forthcoming. He deserves to fail and at the moment the Conservative party deserves to fail with him. It needs to be brought to their knees. As indeed does Labour and Lib Dems.
For the record not ukipper will probably continue as independent voter.
XJ Flyer said:
It is difficult to see how UKIP can possibly be any different obviously being firstly lumbered with the UK federalist ideology which makes England a net contributor to the UK budget in just the same way as the EU one.
Secondly an immigration policy which is set by the CBI being all about over supply of the labour market to keep wage levels lower than they would otherwise be.
Thirdly still being full on believers in the global free market economy wether in or out of the EU.UKIP shows all the signs of just another Party in which it is the CBI who run the country not the elected government.
Not sure UKIP are great lovers of the CBISecondly an immigration policy which is set by the CBI being all about over supply of the labour market to keep wage levels lower than they would otherwise be.
Thirdly still being full on believers in the global free market economy wether in or out of the EU.UKIP shows all the signs of just another Party in which it is the CBI who run the country not the elected government.
"Ukip's Nigel Farage Slams CBI as 'Out of Touch with Reality on Europe"
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigel-farage-ukip-europe-...
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