Why the UKIP will never work....

[otolith]

XJ Flyer said:

otolith said:

XJ Flyer said:

If you're right then how do you explain our trade surplus with Europe before we joined the scam which then turned into a deficit which massacred our manufacturing sector since joining it.The fact is the EU might provide some opportunities for a few domestic exporters but at the expense of the country's overall prosperity as a whole simply because our own market is ( would be ) worth more to our domestic industry than the EU one is worth to it.

Can you point out on the diagram where the EU touched you?



Red line is when we joined the EU.

I'm not the biggest fan of the EU, but I can't see the smoking gun for your claim.

Firstly that doesn't seem to be a specifically european trade related graph.While even what it does show is that since joining the EU ( and the global free market economy ) the figures went into an erratic downward trend as opposed to the stable trade balance/surplus line previous to that remembering that oil exports weren't online during most of that previous period.The only reason anyone wouldn't be able to see a smoking gun in that graph is because they don't want to.

What was the state of the balance of payments shortly before we joined? And shortly after?

[XJ Flyer]

RYH64E said:

XJ Flyer said:

If you're right then how do you explain our trade surplus with Europe before we joined the scam which then turned into a deficit which massacred our manufacturing sector since joining it.

Because there are too many armchair experts who'd rather sit around whingeing about the EU than get of their collective arses to take advantage of the opportunities available. Make stuff, sell it to our EU neighbours, employ people, pay taxes, and get rich in the process, what's wrong with that?

What is wrong with that is the simple fact that the average European buyer won't buy what you're selling because they will either prefer to buy products made in Germany or the Far East.While at best in general buying British just means British assembled German or Far Eastern components.When what is needed is to get back into a situation of trade balance by firstly closing the domestic market to imported products at least until we are back into a situation of trade balance.Unlike the situation now of dreaming about selling into impossible already lost foreign markets with the lose lose situation of leaving our own domestic market wide open to unlimited imports.

[FredClogs]

XJ Flyer said:

What is wrong with that is the simple fact that the average European buyer won't buy what you're selling because they will either prefer to buy products made in Germany or the Far East.While at best in general buying British just means British assembled German or Far Eastern components.When what is needed is to get back into a situation of trade balance by firstly closing the domestic market to imported products at least until we are back into a situation of trade balance.Unlike the situation now of dreaming about selling into impossible already lost foreign markets with the lose lose situation of leaving our own domestic market wide open to unlimited imports.

People, in general leaving aside the odd nose cutting spiteful with xenophobic tendencies, will buy the best thing they can afford too. In these times of the global village people really don't give more than a seconds thought as to where it came from or who manufactured it (if they did they would buy a lot less stuff)

As someone who works in the development and manufacture of mass market technology products I can tell you for a fact if we closed our borders to importing components and complete technologies from abroad we'd be fked, both in the short, medium and long term.

I don't recognise your perception of the world as anywhere near the reality I live in.

[XJ Flyer]

otolith said:

XJ Flyer said:

otolith said:

XJ Flyer said:

If you're right then how do you explain our trade surplus with Europe before we joined the scam which then turned into a deficit which massacred our manufacturing sector since joining it.The fact is the EU might provide some opportunities for a few domestic exporters but at the expense of the country's overall prosperity as a whole simply because our own market is ( would be ) worth more to our domestic industry than the EU one is worth to it.

Can you point out on the diagram where the EU touched you?



Red line is when we joined the EU.

I'm not the biggest fan of the EU, but I can't see the smoking gun for your claim.

Firstly that doesn't seem to be a specifically european trade related graph.While even what it does show is that since joining the EU ( and the global free market economy ) the figures went into an erratic downward trend as opposed to the stable trade balance/surplus line previous to that remembering that oil exports weren't online during most of that previous period.The only reason anyone wouldn't be able to see a smoking gun in that graph is because they don't want to.

What was the state of the balance of payments shortly before we joined? And shortly after?

Look at the graph you'll see a move from the surplus side of balance towards deficit followed by an erratic downward trend ever since.It certainly doesn't show any long term trend towards the type of balance we had before joining let alone surplus.While as I said the figures before we joined also mostly didn't have the benefit of oil exports coming online big time and that graph doesn't seem to be specifically related to our european trade balance.In which case this is the truth rather than that graph.

Although having said that ironically also showing the flaw in UKIP's ideology in wanting out of the EU to just get us even deeper into the mire of the global free market economy.In which case I'd take its ideas that we are supposedly in trade surplus with the rest of the world with a pinch of salt being that our trading relationship with China shows the reality of that.

www.ampers.me.uk/2013/02/five-inconvenient-truths-...

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 18:23

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 18:28

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 18:41

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 18:44

[WinstonWolf]

Matt Nunn and reality in the same sentence?

[otolith]

XJ Flyer said:

Look at the graph you'll see a move from the surplus side of balance towards deficit followed by an erratic downward trend ever since.It certainly doesn't show any long term trend towards the type of balance we had before joining let alone surplus.While as I said the figures before we joined also mostly didn't have the benefit of oil exports coming online big time and that graph doesn't seem to be specifically related to our european trade balance.

I see a nose dive in the 90's, exacerbated by inflation and the growth of the total economy. I don't see anything tying it to EU membership in the 70's.

[XJ Flyer]

otolith said:

XJ Flyer said:

Look at the graph you'll see a move from the surplus side of balance towards deficit followed by an erratic downward trend ever since.It certainly doesn't show any long term trend towards the type of balance we had before joining let alone surplus.While as I said the figures before we joined also mostly didn't have the benefit of oil exports coming online big time and that graph doesn't seem to be specifically related to our european trade balance.

I see a nose dive in the 90's, exacerbated by inflation and the growth of the total economy. I don't see anything tying it to EU membership in the 70's.

That's because the graph isn't specifically related to uk-europe trade figures.Trust me we've been in massive trade deficit ever since joining.As anyone who lived through and saw the shift from British made manufactured products to EU made ones in the domestic market would know.In large part being a result of the fact that the EEC needed North Sea oil and obviously needed to pay for it with something.Which led to the situation of us closing manufactruring capacity in favour of Euro imports so they could 'buy' our oil based on products which we could make for ourselves.IE a foreign aid scam in all but name.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1975/ja...

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 18:43

[FiF]

BGARK said:

FredClogs said:

FiF said:

FiF said:

Someone put this thread out of its misery. Please.

Bump. Still no evident merit to this thread's continuance.

I'd be interested to know why you think that?

+1

Already been covered.

[RYH64E]

XJ Flyer said:

What is wrong with that is the simple fact that the average European buyer won't buy what you're selling because they will either prefer to buy products made in Germany or the Far East.

I'd like to know what experience this statement is based upon. About 50% of my output is manufactured in the UK, from components sourced from Europe, and sold to customers in the EU (including Germany), profitably I might add and without using any cheap labour.

The vast majority of those people running our manufacturing industry will be in favour of staying in the EU, as will almost all employer organisations. But what do they know.

[BGARK]

Countdown said:

It's easy to blame others for one's own shortcomings.

What shortcomings are you referring to?

I am concerned with the state of my country though, how can I have control over that?

[XJ Flyer]

RYH64E said:

XJ Flyer said:

What is wrong with that is the simple fact that the average European buyer won't buy what you're selling because they will either prefer to buy products made in Germany or the Far East.

I'd like to know what experience this statement is based upon. About 50% of my output is manufactured in the UK, from components sourced from Europe, and sold to customers in the EU (including Germany), profitably I might add and without using any cheap labour.

The vast majority of those people running our manufacturing industry will be in favour of staying in the EU, as will almost all employer organisations. But what do they know.

Which part of what you've said there isn't consistent with my comments that in too many cases even when we do export British 'made' products they are actually often a case of using imported components thereby not adding anything to the UK economy in the form of using all UK manufactured components in UK exports.

As for staying in everything there is consistent with CBI policy since we joined the scam.When the maths 'actually' say that the choice between staying in,as opposed to getting out and putting us back at least into trade surplus by way of tarrifs and quota barriers is a no brainer.In which case yes our EU exports might suffer but that would obviously be massively outweighed by the opportunities in a protected domestic market.

[XJ Flyer]

BGARK said:

Countdown said:

It's easy to blame others for one's own shortcomings.

What shortcomings are you referring to?

I am concerned with the state of my country though, how can I have control over that?

'Control' in this case being the bombshell realisation that protectionism is good and free market economies are bad.Without that realisation sadly all is inevitably lost.

[RYH64E]

XJ Flyer said:

Which part of what you've said there isn't consistent with my comments that in too many cases even when we do export British 'made' products they are actually often a case of using imported components thereby not adding anything to the UK economy in the form of using all UK manufactured components in UK exports.

As for staying in everything there is consistent with CBI policy since we joined the scam.When the maths 'actually' say that the choice between staying in,as opposed to getting out and putting us back at least into trade surplus by way of tarrifs and quota barriers is a no brainer.In which case yes our EU exports might suffer but that would obviously be massively outweighed by the opportunities in a protected domestic market.

You've really got no idea.

If I (or anyone else) buy £0.10 worth of components, pay UK workers another £0.10 in labour to assemble said components into a finished product, pay another £0.10 in various UK overheads (admin, business rates, gas/electricity/water/insurance etc), then sell millions of the finished product to customers in Germany and around Europe, and pay corporation tax (and a raft of other taxes) on the subsequent profits, you think the whole process is worthless because the components were sourced from outside the UK? Employment, tax, balance of payments, added value...

[BGARK]

RYH64E said:

You've really got no idea.

If I (or anyone else) buy £0.10 worth of components, pay UK workers another £0.10 in labour to assemble said components into a finished product, pay another £0.10 in various UK overheads (admin, business rates, gas/electricity/water/insurance etc), then sell millions of the finished product to customers in Germany and around Europe, and pay corporation tax (and a raft of other taxes) on the subsequent profits, you think the whole process is worthless because the components were sourced from outside the UK? Employment, tax, balance of payments, added value...

Not worthless but it could be the difference in a car manufacturing plant of 5,000 or the 50,000 people associated with manufacture, production, assembly.

[RYH64E]

BGARK said:

Not worthless but it could be the difference in a car manufacturing plant of 5,000 or the 50,000 people associated with manufacture, production, assembly.

If we lose free access to the EU market we won't have a car industry, the big manufacturers are only here to avoid 10% import duty on non-EU manufactured cars.

[BGARK]

RYH64E said:

If we lose free access to the EU market we won't have a car industry, the big manufacturers are only here to avoid 10% import duty on non-EU manufactured cars.

Can you perhaps advise what products Poland, Greece and other EU countries produce that we need to purchase?

[XJ Flyer]

RYH64E said:

XJ Flyer said:

Which part of what you've said there isn't consistent with my comments that in too many cases even when we do export British 'made' products they are actually often a case of using imported components thereby not adding anything to the UK economy in the form of using all UK manufactured components in UK exports.

As for staying in everything there is consistent with CBI policy since we joined the scam.When the maths 'actually' say that the choice between staying in,as opposed to getting out and putting us back at least into trade surplus by way of tarrifs and quota barriers is a no brainer.In which case yes our EU exports might suffer but that would obviously be massively outweighed by the opportunities in a protected domestic market.

You've really got no idea.

If I (or anyone else) buy £0.10 worth of components, pay UK workers another £0.10 in labour to assemble said components into a finished product, pay another £0.10 in various UK overheads (admin, business rates, gas/electricity/water/insurance etc), then sell millions of the finished product to customers in Germany and around Europe, and pay corporation tax (and a raft of other taxes) on the subsequent profits, you think the whole process is worthless because the components were sourced from outside the UK? Employment, tax, balance of payments, added value...

Out of which we obviously have to subract the value and taxes lost in the domestic economy in the manufacture of the components.

Ironically I was involved in a similar operation in the case of uk specialist heavy vehicle manufacturing where we used American imported engines and transmissions when at least.maybe,an arguably better,or at least as good,domestically made alternative existed in the form of the Rolls Royce CV12 engine at least.Having said that it was still a majority UK 'manufactured' product in most/all other respects from the raw materials stage to the finished product with that American content probably being an essential in customer acceptance of the rest.

Which seems different to the situation with a lot of UK 'manufacturing' now.The fact is the early 1970's were probably the last time when this country could still be termed a major manufacturing based economy and it was all downhill from that point.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 20:18

[XJ Flyer]

BGARK said:

RYH64E said:

You've really got no idea.

If I (or anyone else) buy £0.10 worth of components, pay UK workers another £0.10 in labour to assemble said components into a finished product, pay another £0.10 in various UK overheads (admin, business rates, gas/electricity/water/insurance etc), then sell millions of the finished product to customers in Germany and around Europe, and pay corporation tax (and a raft of other taxes) on the subsequent profits, you think the whole process is worthless because the components were sourced from outside the UK? Employment, tax, balance of payments, added value...

Not worthless but it could be the difference in a car manufacturing plant of 5,000 or the 50,000 people associated with manufacture, production, assembly.

The comparison would be along the lines of the Ford 'manufacturing' type operation at Dagenham in the 1960's for example and other UK car manufacturing with its almost if not total domestically made component content,to a modern day 'assembly' of foreign manufactured components type operation today.

[dandarez]

RYH64E said:

BGARK said:

Not worthless but it could be the difference in a car manufacturing plant of 5,000 or the 50,000 people associated with manufacture, production, assembly.

If we lose free access to the EU market we won't have a car industry, the big manufacturers are only here to avoid 10% import duty on non-EU manufactured cars.

...We won't have a car industry ...oh dear.

Let's take MINI UK - it is currently full to capacity now in the UK, so now has plants in Holland and Austria to cope. The USA is the MINI's largest customer. The UK the second. Do you really think there are here only to avoid 10% import duty?

Perhaps, as I live near the UK plant, I'll quote you Harald Kruger (and if you don't know who he is, look it up! Then look up Rolls-Royce).

'Production capacity is something we have to monitor all the time because of the success of cars globally but Oxford will always be the home of MINI.'

[BGARK]

BGARK said:

CamMoreRon said:

Nonsense, they are simply a list of tasks that would help the country and its people./quote]

Cough.. IN YOUR OPINION.

I think quite a lot of people would disagree with you on that.

Which bit do you disagree with and can you explain why?

Which bit do you disagree with and can you explain why?