No charges for Missouri cop who shot unarmed teenager

[Tannedbaldhead]

Matt Harper said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

Shooting probably justified. If someone that size was about to thump me and I had a gun in my hand it may well end up going bang. Question is whether regardless of it being justified or not are there tactics and methodology (two man crews, better self defence training, a different tone of engagement etc) where shootings like this can be avoided?

Rioting? Justified? I couldn't comfortably say that. What I can say is that from the perspective of the communities subjected to a confrontational approach from police and who's members are taking a lot of beatings and shootings it serves a purpose. It raises the public profile and makes the political class uncomfortable. Should it result in a different Policing approach, different training, different tactics, a less confrontational tone of engagement then justified or not, from the perpective of the communities suffering poor policing, rioting works.

As to your question regarding how many police engagements are of this confrontational nature you need to be aware many USPDs have recruit from services policies and new starts are trained as such https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3NlnBixyqE . I wonder how many of our own BiBs look upon the interactions these rookies are having with the Full Metal Jacket wanabe drill sergeants as good training for interaction with the general public? When you see how modern US cops are conditioned it's no surprise to see where their "don't you eyeball me boy" term of initial engagement and lack of sensitivity comes from. It's not bad apples. It's systemic.

Pretty much all of this demonstrates that you haven't the faintest idea what you are writing about. You clearly watch far too much TV and have become some kind of self-proclaimed authority on policing matters in a country you have zero understanding/experience of.

You are entitled to your opinion - misguided as it may be, but the prescriptive nature of the rubbish you have written here makes you appear to be a bit of a dick. The Met Police training academy at Hendon, (which my daughter attended vs watched on TV) is rather similar to the video clip you posted above.

Educate yourself before telling us all how it is in the US please.

I have a lot of family in US and Canada. Am not basing my observations on what I've seen on TV but on how they report the way things are. My cousins range from right on left to rabid right. Niether dispute this change it's just the liberal types hate it where as the right wingers take a needs must attitude. I've also noticed the difference myself visiting the states. Cops have changed from tall, slim ordinary looking guys with neat hair in side sheds and a tash to bullet headed American footballer types. From the odd occasions I've dealt with them (speeding down a hill on a push-bike in Utah was last time) I've seen them evolve into Joe from family guy.

[Impasse]

Wilson (the cop) has resigned. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30266172

[Jimbeaux]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Matt Harper said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

Shooting probably justified. If someone that size was about to thump me and I had a gun in my hand it may well end up going bang. Question is whether regardless of it being justified or not are there tactics and methodology (two man crews, better self defence training, a different tone of engagement etc) where shootings like this can be avoided?

Rioting? Justified? I couldn't comfortably say that. What I can say is that from the perspective of the communities subjected to a confrontational approach from police and who's members are taking a lot of beatings and shootings it serves a purpose. It raises the public profile and makes the political class uncomfortable. Should it result in a different Policing approach, different training, different tactics, a less confrontational tone of engagement then justified or not, from the perpective of the communities suffering poor policing, rioting works.

As to your question regarding how many police engagements are of this confrontational nature you need to be aware many USPDs have recruit from services policies and new starts are trained as such https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3NlnBixyqE . I wonder how many of our own BiBs look upon the interactions these rookies are having with the Full Metal Jacket wanabe drill sergeants as good training for interaction with the general public? When you see how modern US cops are conditioned it's no surprise to see where their "don't you eyeball me boy" term of initial engagement and lack of sensitivity comes from. It's not bad apples. It's systemic.

Pretty much all of this demonstrates that you haven't the faintest idea what you are writing about. You clearly watch far too much TV and have become some kind of self-proclaimed authority on policing matters in a country you have zero understanding/experience of.

You are entitled to your opinion - misguided as it may be, but the prescriptive nature of the rubbish you have written here makes you appear to be a bit of a dick. The Met Police training academy at Hendon, (which my daughter attended vs watched on TV) is rather similar to the video clip you posted above.

Educate yourself before telling us all how it is in the US please.

I have a lot of family in US and Canada. Am not basing my observations on what I've seen on TV but on how they report the way things are. My cousins range from right on left to rabid right. Niether dispute this change it's just the liberal types hate it where as the right wingers take a needs must attitude. I've also noticed the difference myself visiting the states. Cops have changed from tall, slim ordinary looking guys with neat hair in side sheds and a tash to bullet headed American footballer types. From the odd occasions I've dealt with them (speeding down a hill on a push-bike in Utah was last time) I've seen them evolve into Joe from family guy.

So, your encounter, were you in the wrong? We're shot? Beat up? Threatened? Just checking.

[Jimbeaux]

The beaten face of Wilson shows the result. You don't strike Police officers, full stop. You don't force yourself into the front seat. And beat the cop.. You don't force yourself into the front seat, beat the cop, then reach for his weapon. That will get you shot, understandably, every time.....whether you be black, white, yellow, red, or in between.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Jimbeaux said:

So, your encounter, were you in the wrong? We're shot? Beat up? Threatened? Just checking.

Was I in the wrong? Probably but the reaction was way out of proportion and threatening in tone. I used to mountain bike a lot in Colorado and Utah on the Rocky Mountain forest trails and on the slick-rock in Canyonland. I'd stay in ski resorts off season in the summer where, before mountain biking became popular, you could have an incredibly cheap holiday.

My encounter with the Police was while riding in Utah with guys from Brekenridge CO, some English lads and a couple of Norwegians . The guys were crowd of nutters (hard core snowboarder dirt-biker types who were pretty "out there" on the trails. We were on full-sus disc-braked carbonfibre and light alloy mountain bikes. Because I was riding slick rock I was running fat sticky high pressure slick tyres (Specialised Fat Boys). On the way back from the trails to our campsite we rode on roads very similar to Alpine passes. The bikes' set up were incredibly fast on the road and the mountainbike geometry, big fat slicks and disc brakes allowed us to barrel into hairpins, brake hard and crank the bike over into suicidal lean angles much the way I could on my motorbike.

I've ridden like that in Italian and French Alps without anyone raising an eyebrow and no-one would even think of calling the Police. Problem with Utah is the locals are quite nutty and vigilantiesque when they see anyone break the law. Next problem is Utah cops take very seriously the complaints of said vigilante nutters. The main breach of the law was that approaches to the switchbacks were 20 limits and we were steaming in at twice that speed and then some.

First contact with the police which I witnessed was when they came to the campsite. This wasn't like the quiet word you'd get from Central Scotland Police. According to these boys we could be in serious trouble. Because we were from abroad and out of state they were threatening us with Jail time and interacted with a general tone of threat and malice. I remember a cop getting very nasty with one guy who pointed out we didn't have speedometers. Lesson learned there was "no back talking" and that back talking was saying anything to the police while they told you off. The cops were confrontational, threatening, unpleasant and in a way very stereotypical. They really say stuff like "who do you think you guys are coming to our country and treating our roads like racetracks or the Autobhan".

Second contact with Police was nasty. We ignored the warnings and continued our high speed decents. As we came round a corner we noticed a cop car sitting in a lay-by further down the hill. After the first bking we decided to bypass the car by taking out mountainbikes off road and into the trails. Back at the site we were tugged, seached, cuffed taken to the station where we told that as we had been warned about our crimes, knew we were guilty and bodyswerved the Police car at the bottom of the hill we were guilty of Police obstruction and felony fleeing. The cops also told us that could get us shot in the back. We were told to leave the area and not come back. We were told in a way that we did what we were told.

It's not like the UK over there. And you don't threaten tourists with jail and gunshot wounds for riding pushbikes too fast.

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 30th November 03:29

[toohuge]

^^^^^ wow.

You admit to reckless riding and breaking the speed limit on a road that is in an area where the local population and the police take speeding very seriously.

Then, when you are spoken to by the police, you don't accept the slap on the wrist and admit your wrong doing (despite knowing full well that you were riding too fast for local limits). Then, you and your friends had the wise idea to back chat a police officer of a foreign country. And then, the next day you decide to blatantly ignore the gentle warnings the police gave you the first time and think you're above the law and decide that you're untouchable and should be able to do as you please. (You do realize the police car you saw the second day wasn't there by coincidence, don't you?)

Astonishing.

I think before you go bad mouthing a police force in a foreign country, you have a serious think about your attitude and your actions on that day. - you come across as an arrogant, disrespectful and spoilt child.

[babatunde]

Jimbeaux said:

The beaten face of Wilson shows the result. You don't strike Police officers, full stop. You don't force yourself into the front seat. And beat the cop.. You don't force yourself into the front seat, beat the cop, then reach for his weapon. That will get you shot, understandably, every time.....whether you be black, white, yellow, red, or in between.

You've seen the pictures right? http://time.com/3605051/darren-wilson-photos-injur...




Or are you referring to http://www.snopes.com/info/news/wilson.asp

[NicD]

toohuge said:

^^^^^ wow.

You admit to reckless riding and breaking the speed limit on a road that is in an area where the local population and the police take speeding very seriously.

Then, when you are spoken to by the police, you don't accept the slap on the wrist and admit your wrong doing (despite knowing full well that you were riding too fast for local limits). Then, you and your friends had the wise idea to back chat a police officer of a foreign country. And then, the next day you decide to blatantly ignore the gentle warnings the police gave you the first time and think you're above the law and decide that you're untouchable and should be able to do as you please. (You do realize the police car you saw the second day wasn't there by coincidence, don't you?)

Astonishing.

I think before you go bad mouthing a police force in a foreign country, you have a serious think about your attitude and your actions on that day. - you come across as an arrogant, disrespectful and spoilt child.

+1 and btw, you likely made it worse for Brits who come to the area after you, by creating a stereotype.

[babatunde]

NicD said:

toohuge said:

^^^^^ wow.

You admit to reckless riding and breaking the speed limit on a road that is in an area where the local population and the police take speeding very seriously.

Then, when you are spoken to by the police, you don't accept the slap on the wrist and admit your wrong doing (despite knowing full well that you were riding too fast for local limits). Then, you and your friends had the wise idea to back chat a police officer of a foreign country. And then, the next day you decide to blatantly ignore the gentle warnings the police gave you the first time and think you're above the law and decide that you're untouchable and should be able to do as you please. (You do realize the police car you saw the second day wasn't there by coincidence, don't you?)

Astonishing.

I think before you go bad mouthing a police force in a foreign country, you have a serious think about your attitude and your actions on that day. - you come across as an arrogant, disrespectful and spoilt child.

+1 and btw, you likely made it worse for Brits who come to the area after you, by creating a stereotype.

+2 no really, go to a foreign country, break the law, get told off, say WTF I'm above the law, continue breaking the law, you my friend need to go to Singapore and try that.

[Tannedbaldhead]

babatunde said:

NicD said:

toohuge said:

^^^^^ wow.

You admit to reckless riding and breaking the speed limit on a road that is in an area where the local population and the police take speeding very seriously.

Then, when you are spoken to by the police, you don't accept the slap on the wrist and admit your wrong doing (despite knowing full well that you were riding too fast for local limits). Then, you and your friends had the wise idea to back chat a police officer of a foreign country. And then, the next day you decide to blatantly ignore the gentle warnings the police gave you the first time and think you're above the law and decide that you're untouchable and should be able to do as you please. (You do realize the police car you saw the second day wasn't there by coincidence, don't you?)

Astonishing.

I think before you go bad mouthing a police force in a foreign country, you have a serious think about your attitude and your actions on that day. - you come across as an arrogant, disrespectful and spoilt child.

+1 and btw, you likely made it worse for Brits who come to the area after you, by creating a stereotype.

+2 no really, go to a foreign country, break the law, get told off, say WTF I'm above the law, continue breaking the law, you my friend need to go to Singapore and try that.

I'm astonished that anyone is astonished. This is the forum that howls with rightious indignation at the French Police frogmarching high performance car drivers to cash-lines to collect fines for speeding en-rout to the Nurburgring. This is also the forum whenever any asks advice over what to do about foreign speeding tickets are casually informed "don't pay".

When did everyone become so puritanical? All we did was ride mountain-bikes down a hill and exceed a draconian 20mph limit down a bloody hill. The "gentle warning" was "you wanna go to jail boys coz that's where you'll end up" followed by "you try to avoid us round here and you could end up legally shot in the back". Am waiting to hear the same guys telling me the British accademic who was pulled for J-Walking by a plain clothes detective, asked the officer for ID and was beaten to the ground and booked for resisting arrest that the Brit let his country down by flouting foreign laws and disrespecting its officers. http://metro.co.uk/2007/01/10/police-beat-historia...

[Elroy Blue]

Tannedbaldhead said:

. I'd also like to see proper decent riots where the crowd focus like a laser on the police

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 29th November 20:58

Could you elaborate on 'focus like a laser on Police'. I'm a Police Officer, so what exactly would you like the rioting crowd to do to me? Is a few slabs of concrete on my head enough, or do you advocate knives, clubs.......guns?

As for your tirade against US Police. Have you ever been on patrol with them? I have, numerous times. They are ordinary people doing an extraordinary job. Nearly 200 have been killed on duty this year alone. You really do have a very, very warped view of the world.

(Don't tell me, you want 'Justice'. Just as long as it's justice that suits you....not actual justice)

[Elroy Blue]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Cops have changed from tall, slim ordinary looking guys with neat hair in side sheds and a tash to bullet headed American footballer types. .

Really?

Here's some 'bullet headed American Football types'





Here's one with no humanity at all (that's his mum)



Here's some examples of them oppressing the local community









And here's one of them specifically targeting disabled children (as they annually raise money to pay for the sporting field they're stood on, it's upkeep and all the equipment)



Those US Police Officers really are terrible, terrible individuals

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

. I'd also like to see proper decent riots where the crowd focus like a laser on the police

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 29th November 20:58

Could you elaborate on 'focus like a laser on Police'. I'm a Police Officer, so what exactly would you like the rioting crowd to do to me? Is a few slabs of concrete on my head enough, or do you advocate knives, clubs.......guns?

As for your tirade against US Police. Have you ever been on patrol with them? I have, numerous times. They are ordinary people doing an extraordinary job. Nearly 200 have been killed on duty this year alone. You really do have a very, very warped view of the world.

(Don't tell me, you want 'Justice'. Just as long as it's justice that suits you....not actual justice)

It was basically an attack on the aquisitional riots in London in 2011 where the yoofs idea of protest was to steal stuff and in turn an attack on the looters of Ferguson.

I wouldn't say my view of US policing is warped. It's a view shared by a large proportion of the US population. I base it from personal experience of being aggresively policed and policed in a manner I am not used to in the UK and comments from my family in the US who complain about the way behaviour of the police in the USA has changed. It is also backed up with a huge body of evidence of innocents and minor offenders subjected to overwhelming levels of force. What's more there are far too many incidents to be written off as the actions of a few bad apples. Like I said before the aggresion is systemic and needs addressed.

[Elroy Blue]

You didn't answer my question. What do you mean by 'focus on Police'. Please do elaborate.

And I suggest the photos I've posted are far more representative of US Policing than the extreme examples you provide.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

You didn't answer my question. What do you mean by 'focus on Police'. Please do elaborate.

A good example of non aquisitional rioting was the rioting in Derry in the late 70s and early 80s. It looked horrific on TV but in reality very few Soldiers, Police or rioters were killed or even suffered serious injuries. What's more the rioters didn't wreck their neighbourhood or go on looting sprees and at the end of action the corner shop was still standing to provide a Mars Bar and a Can of Coke after a hard days petrol bombing.

[Elroy Blue]

Tannedbaldhead said:

In reality very few Soldiers, Police or rioters were killed or even suffered serious injuries.

Are you actually for real?

[Vaud]

From wikipedia.

[Murph7355]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Shooting probably justified. If someone that size was about to thump me and I had a gun in my hand it may well end up going bang. Question is whether regardless of it being justified or not are there tactics and methodology (two man crews, better self defence training, a different tone of engagement etc) where shootings like this can be avoided?

I'm no expert, but if you do not want to be restrained it's very easy to make it take far more than two people to restrain you, even if they are of comparable size (and I know this from a purely fun context - rugby. My stag do ). Let alone 30% bigger and high on at least adrenaline.

Two man crews wouldn't therefore make a difference in scenarios like this.

And if it took 7 rounds to stop him, I'm not sure even Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee armed with the world's biggest taser and can of mace would have made that much difference either. The stuff we see on fictional TV shows bears zero resemblance to real life IMO. Which is probably why we are "shocked" when we see people getting shot on real life TV or the activities you see on YouTube.

It's trying to tool up for the worst outcomes that prompts the police in the US to arm themselves per the pictures that others were scorning on this thread. Perhaps if some of the fkwit population weren't so intent on robbing, being violent towards their fellow citizens and attacking the police, things wouldn't get this way either?

Tannedbaldhead said:

Rioting? Justified? I couldn't comfortably say that. What I can say is that from the perspective of the communities subjected to a confrontational approach from police and who's members are taking a lot of beatings and shootings it serves a purpose. It raises the public profile and makes the political class uncomfortable. Should it result in a different Policing approach, different training, different tactics, a less confrontational tone of engagement then justified or not, from the perpective of the communities suffering poor policing, rioting works.

It does nothing of the sort IMO. It simply adds to the resolve of those that don't want to behave this way, nor want to have their taxes contribute towards people who cannot behave themselves in a liberal society, dig their heels in.

Perhaps if the communities subjected this way took it upon themselves to weed out the fkwit fraternity, things would actually change for the better far, far quicker? But all too often there are sections of these communities that will try and justify the unjustifiable.

In trashing their own neighbourhoods the only people these idiots are hurting are themselves. The communities need to rise against this, not join in! Maybe if the rest of society simply said "enough's enough" and left them to the squalor they have created for themselves they would learn.

Tannedbaldhead said:

As to your question regarding how many police engagements are of this confrontational nature you need to be aware many USPDs have recruit from services policies and new starts are trained as such https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3NlnBixyqE . I wonder how many of our own BiBs look upon the interactions these rookies are having with the Full Metal Jacket wanabe drill sergeants as good training for interaction with the general public? When you see how modern US cops are conditioned it's no surprise to see where their "don't you eyeball me boy" term of initial engagement and lack of sensitivity comes from. It's not bad apples. It's systemic.

Fortunately the UK is still a little way off the US in many respects. Though we seem hell bent on emulating the US of A.

US immigration is another example where our respective agencies behave very differently. I guess it's born of different attitudes on key social policies for better and for worse.

The key thing is, if everyone knows this then the rules of the game (which is precisely what society is) are well understood. You then either choose to live within them or not. If you do, life will generally be smooth (the odd anecodtal exception granted). If you don't, you'll find yourself rubbing up against its boundaries all the time and that might have dire consequences.

It's the same the world over. Though there are plenty of places that choose where the boundaries are set different (again, plenty much harsher, plenty much more lenient).

What is also the same the world over is that respect for the rule of law and its officers needs to be a given by default for society to be tolerable (which isn't to say the officers are above the law either). You don't feck about with the police. You stay polite, and do as they ask (within the law!). Then the vast majority of times you will be fine. Start getting lippy, let alone physically attacking them, and you're on a very slippery slope.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Vaud said:

From wikipedia.

Bullets and bombs. You can't equate those figures to rioting.

I can assure you by the late 70s the riots in Derry were near choreographed. The soldiers knew how close the crowd could get before they were at risk of serious injury and the crowd knew how much bricks and petrolbombs could be delivered and from what distance before the Army started loosing off plastic bullets. To an extent it was letting off steam and I'll bet the senior officers looked upon it as cathartic and letting the Paddies get it out their system.

[Murph7355]

Tannedbaldhead said:

...
When did everyone become so puritanical?...

I'm not sure they are. But you get caught, you take the consequences like a grown up rather than getting all chippy. The latter route just ends up with worse consequences. Most people learn this around age 6.

Tannedbaldhead said:

...All we did was ride mountain-bikes down a hill and exceed a draconian 20mph limit down a bloody hill. ...

Draconian or not, someone has decided that's the limit. You knew about it, so suck it up if your bit of fun is stopped.

Tannedbaldhead said:

...The "gentle warning" was "you wanna go to jail boys coz that's where you'll end up" followed by "you try to avoid us round here and you could end up legally shot in the back". ...

I agree, police can often say stupid things at times. But why rise to it? A simple "yes officer, thanks, won't do it again and ride on your way is enough. If you must, regale your friends later down the pub with how much of a cock end he was. But lipping back at the police officer is just going to get you into worse bother.

Look at it this way...he may have to deal with half a dozen people in the preceding hour to talking to you. Possibly for genuinely worse situations with consequences. Maybe he's not in much of a mood to deal with a bunch of know it all Brits? I don't have to deal with the general public in my job, but I'm sure if I did my levels of tolerance would plummet as by and large they are idiots!