So it's class war then...
Discussion
heppers75 said:
turbobloke said:
rovermorris999 said:
fblm said:
How do you level the 'good' school in a middle class commuter belt with a 'bad' school next to an inner city estate?
You do the usual socialist thing and level down. It's 'fair' then.My son is on the school rugby team, we played one of the local comps several months ago. We happened to win, pretty much hands down to be fair.
However there was the post match stuff on the field the usual man of the match etc. So we had best try, man of the match and players player, cheapo trophies that get passed on week to week, you know the stuff we probably all did as kids.
They had none of that but the teacher/coach did a we may have lost but we are all winners kind of speech and they all got a "participation" ribbon!!!
When those kids follow Presclot and participate in a future Labour government (heaven help everyone else) they can attach those ribbons to their memo to the IMF begging for yet more participation.
heppers75 said:
Just as an aside...
My son is on the school rugby team, we played one of the local comps several months ago. We happened to win, pretty much hands down to be fair.
However there was the post match stuff on the field the usual man of the match etc. So we had best try, man of the match and players player, cheapo trophies that get passed on week to week, you know the stuff we probably all did as kids.
They had none of that but the teacher/coach did a we may have lost but we are all winners kind of speech and they all got a "participation" ribbon!!!
My lad plays rugby. He led his team out onto the hallowed turf for a cup final. 'We' beat the other side by more than one score and my lad was presented with the cup. And do you know what the leftie RFU did? They only gave the other side participation medals. That's just asking for a reduction to mediocrity.My son is on the school rugby team, we played one of the local comps several months ago. We happened to win, pretty much hands down to be fair.
However there was the post match stuff on the field the usual man of the match etc. So we had best try, man of the match and players player, cheapo trophies that get passed on week to week, you know the stuff we probably all did as kids.
They had none of that but the teacher/coach did a we may have lost but we are all winners kind of speech and they all got a "participation" ribbon!!!
turbobloke said:
heppers75 said:
turbobloke said:
rovermorris999 said:
fblm said:
How do you level the 'good' school in a middle class commuter belt with a 'bad' school next to an inner city estate?
You do the usual socialist thing and level down. It's 'fair' then.My son is on the school rugby team, we played one of the local comps several months ago. We happened to win, pretty much hands down to be fair.
However there was the post match stuff on the field the usual man of the match etc. So we had best try, man of the match and players player, cheapo trophies that get passed on week to week, you know the stuff we probably all did as kids.
They had none of that but the teacher/coach did a we may have lost but we are all winners kind of speech and they all got a "participation" ribbon!!!
When those kids follow Presclot and participate in a future Labour government (heaven help everyone else) they can attach those ribbons to their memo to the IMF begging for yet more participation.
heppers75 said:
If that were how it was both judged and enacted Derek I would utterly agree with you.
That really is not, at least not what I see is being said - however I may have the wrong end of the stick.
It is certainly not however what some on here are also proposing either.
I know a little about charity status and in particular what hoops non-profit-making companies have to jump through to avoid various tax liabilities.That really is not, at least not what I see is being said - however I may have the wrong end of the stick.
It is certainly not however what some on here are also proposing either.
From what I read, that seemed to be the suggestion. That said, it was put forward by a politician and so there's nothing we can trust in what they say.
So perhaps this is a first step towards removing charity status from private schools. I don't know. However, non taxable status for small companies is hard to maintain and the conditions are strict so I see no reason why private schools should be treated lightly.
Some schools do take the mickey. Others do not. That gives an unfair advantage to those who take the mickey. It is unreasonable to expect those schools which seem to have civic responsibility to take the punishment.
Either play by the rules or else lose the concessions.
Foppo said:
How many working people can afford twenty grand to pay for their childrens education.
It's not £20k/year yet, about £12k-ish outside London for a day school, and the answer to your question would be 'Quite a few'. All of the parents I know at my boy's school are working people, myself included. Obviously not poor working people, but working people prepared to make sacrifices to pay for something they consider worthwhile.NomduJour said:
Money buys opportunities, and that isn't going to change.
How fortunate that the evidence shows that, by paying for private education, parents free up school places for those that cannot afford to pay meaning that education funds can be spread over a lower number of pupils - everyone is a winner.NomduJour said:
Foppo said:
Private schools will always give pupils a advantage.How many working people can afford twenty grand to pay for their childrens education
Money buys opportunities, and that isn't going to change.My aforementioned mothers friend from the family wedding who called me "a class traitor" is as sure an indicator of that as ever there was!
Foppo said:
Are you that happy with this lot Mr Turbo?
Which lot - PH? Sure, all pixels are equal and everyone in good odour with the mods has fair access. Coalition? No. Their energy policy is disastrous. The LibDems are preventing necessary change in various areas while proposing idiotic things, but that's only to be expected.
Foppo said:
Surprising a lad from Grimsby so anti labour.
There are insufficient fish being landed to pin a red rosette on after Harold Wilson and his Labour chums lost the cod war and sank the port. Foppo said:
Private schools will always give pupils a advantage.How many working people can afford twenty grand to pay for their childrens education.
The ones I know typically involve a father taking a second job and a mother taking in and managing a lodger as well as p/t work (say). That's the typical sort of thing I'm aware of as people do what they can in their individual family circumstances. I'm state school educated but have had various reasons to be in close contact with independent schools and their clients over the years.Derek Smith said:
heppers75 said:
If that were how it was both judged and enacted Derek I would utterly agree with you.
That really is not, at least not what I see is being said - however I may have the wrong end of the stick.
It is certainly not however what some on here are also proposing either.
I know a little about charity status and in particular what hoops non-profit-making companies have to jump through to avoid various tax liabilities.That really is not, at least not what I see is being said - however I may have the wrong end of the stick.
It is certainly not however what some on here are also proposing either.
From what I read, that seemed to be the suggestion. That said, it was put forward by a politician and so there's nothing we can trust in what they say.
So perhaps this is a first step towards removing charity status from private schools. I don't know. However, non taxable status for small companies is hard to maintain and the conditions are strict so I see no reason why private schools should be treated lightly.
Some schools do take the mickey. Others do not. That gives an unfair advantage to those who take the mickey. It is unreasonable to expect those schools which seem to have civic responsibility to take the punishment.
Either play by the rules or else lose the concessions.
I just think removing that status does not help wider society, even if in places it is abused. Weeding out that abuse is a good idea, but throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not, my issue is that more often than not where government approaches are concerned there seems to be a trebuchet used when a scalpel was necessary!
fblm said:
FredClogs said:
One thing I hope we can agree on, and it seems we might, is the ridiculous post code lottery attached to the education system, where people live would appear to have a far greater impact on your offspring's educational options and life chances than how much money you have and how you choose to spend it - and to that end it's clear only centralised governmental control has the ability to level the playing field (so to speak).
How do you level the 'good' school in a middle class commuter belt with a 'bad' school next to an inner city estate? https://www.cfbt.com/en-GB/Research/Research-libra...
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/london-challeng...
I'd like to see a school system that was so good that parents thought it was ridiculous to spend extra money on private education.
edh said:
fblm said:
FredClogs said:
One thing I hope we can agree on, and it seems we might, is the ridiculous post code lottery attached to the education system, where people live would appear to have a far greater impact on your offspring's educational options and life chances than how much money you have and how you choose to spend it - and to that end it's clear only centralised governmental control has the ability to level the playing field (so to speak).
How do you level the 'good' school in a middle class commuter belt with a 'bad' school next to an inner city estate? https://www.cfbt.com/en-GB/Research/Research-libra...
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/london-challeng...
I'd like to see a school system that was so good that parents thought it was ridiculous to spend extra money on private education.
turbobloke said:
If the state sector was moving forward as fast as you and I would wish in all locations, what makes you think the independent sector would stand still?
good point - but it might find itself out competed for staff for instance, and end up in a damaging costs spiral. AFAIK there was lots of money pumped into London Challenge as good teachers, lots of them, make the difference. edh said:
turbobloke said:
If the state sector was moving forward as fast as you and I would wish in all locations, what makes you think the independent sector would stand still?
good point - but it might find itself out competed for staff for instance, and end up in a damaging costs spiral. AFAIK there was lots of money pumped into London Challenge as good teachers, lots of them, make the difference. edh said:
turbobloke said:
If the state sector was moving forward as fast as you and I would wish in all locations, what makes you think the independent sector would stand still?
good point - but it might find itself out competed for staff for instance, and end up in a damaging costs spiral. AFAIK there was lots of money pumped into London Challenge as good teachers, lots of them, make the difference. It cannot and will not happen - there is just too much idiocracy required to support the current status quo for that ever to happen.
edh said:
good point - but it might find itself out competed for staff for instance, and end up in a damaging costs spiral. AFAIK there was lots of money pumped into London Challenge as good teachers, lots of them, make the difference.
Unfortunately good teachers won't make up for poor parents, you can throw as much money as you like at problem schools but but they'll never match the standards of even poorly funded schools where parents value education and take an active part in educating their children.An inner London school that I have some contact with attributes it's recent academic improvement to an influx of East European immigrants displacing the indigineous white working class pupils, the immigrant pupils want an education, the local hillbillys couldn't care less, funding isn't a factor and the staff haven't changed.
edh said:
I'd like to see a school system that was so good that parents thought it was ridiculous to spend extra money on private education.
Couldn't agree more! I don't see how placing additional costs on private schools which would inevitably lead to additional costs on the state system acheives this though. fblm said:
edh said:
I'd like to see a school system that was so good that parents thought it was ridiculous to spend extra money on private education.
Couldn't agree more! I don't see how placing additional costs on private schools which would inevitably lead to additional costs on the state system acheives this though. fblm said:
edh said:
I'd like to see a school system that was so good that parents thought it was ridiculous to spend extra money on private education.
Couldn't agree more! I don't see how placing additional costs on private schools which would inevitably lead to additional costs on the state system acheives this though. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/educat...
http://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/979/0/london-orato...
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