12-year-old playing with fake gun shot dead by Ohio police.
Discussion
Kaj91 said:
Kid is strolling around pointing the gun at other people. Police car arrives and it looks like he reaches for the gun. Police shot him. Im struggling to see what the issue is.
philv said:
Did tney order him to drop tne gun 3 times whilst driving towards him?
Or 3 times by 2 cops in 2 seconds.
He was 12.
I'd probably crap myself in that situation and make a wrong movement.
I don't care. Kid is obviously pointing it at people and at the point where he doesn't breathe correctly when they're instructing him then it's perfectly fair that they put him out of his misery.Or 3 times by 2 cops in 2 seconds.
He was 12.
I'd probably crap myself in that situation and make a wrong movement.
I would never ask an officer of the law to stand in harm's way for any longer than is absolutely necessary to do their job. Kid or no kid, the gun gets touched or moved towards the cop and they've my 110% backing to fill them with lead.
blindswelledrat said:
andymadmak said:
Well, several posters have already pointed out the practical issues surrounding "shoot to wound" or "let the other fella shoot first so we can be sure he's a bad 'un before we pull the trigger" etc. The fact is a 12 year old can kill you just as easily as a suicide bomber.
The problem is that too many people think that Hollywood gun fights when the baddies always telegraph that they are about to shoot , so that the cops can get their shot off first is in some way real or achievable in real life. Look, I simply cannot believe that any US citizen is not fully cogniscent of the fact that if you screw around with the Police out there you're gonna get hurt. Fail to respond to clear instructions and be carrying a gun (the replica element is irrelevant in this context) and you stand a high % chance of going to the morgue. Everyone knows that. The fault here is with people who think that the Police are clairvoyant and can magically tell the good guys from the not so good guys from the bad guys from the REALLY bad guys. Word up! They can't. So if you want to live, don't pretend to be a badass, waving a gun, failing to respond to Police instructions in a public place.
It's really not that hard. I've spent years in the states and hardly ever been shot at all.. But maybe thats cos I am white?
I read this and thought it articulately and perfectly summed up the whole situation and there wasn't much more to say.The problem is that too many people think that Hollywood gun fights when the baddies always telegraph that they are about to shoot , so that the cops can get their shot off first is in some way real or achievable in real life. Look, I simply cannot believe that any US citizen is not fully cogniscent of the fact that if you screw around with the Police out there you're gonna get hurt. Fail to respond to clear instructions and be carrying a gun (the replica element is irrelevant in this context) and you stand a high % chance of going to the morgue. Everyone knows that. The fault here is with people who think that the Police are clairvoyant and can magically tell the good guys from the not so good guys from the bad guys from the REALLY bad guys. Word up! They can't. So if you want to live, don't pretend to be a badass, waving a gun, failing to respond to Police instructions in a public place.
It's really not that hard. I've spent years in the states and hardly ever been shot at all.. But maybe thats cos I am white?
And then you ruined it by saying "Word up!"
THis has ruined me because I agree with you completely and yet I feel totally compelled to try and disagree with someone who says "word up" without irony.
sorry BSW. I don't know what came over me! It won't happen again.blindswelledrat said:
andymadmak said:
Well, several posters have already pointed out the practical issues surrounding "shoot to wound" or "let the other fella shoot first so we can be sure he's a bad 'un before we pull the trigger" etc. The fact is a 12 year old can kill you just as easily as a suicide bomber.
The problem is that too many people think that Hollywood gun fights when the baddies always telegraph that they are about to shoot , so that the cops can get their shot off first is in some way real or achievable in real life. Look, I simply cannot believe that any US citizen is not fully cogniscent of the fact that if you screw around with the Police out there you're gonna get hurt. Fail to respond to clear instructions and be carrying a gun (the replica element is irrelevant in this context) and you stand a high % chance of going to the morgue. Everyone knows that. The fault here is with people who think that the Police are clairvoyant and can magically tell the good guys from the not so good guys from the bad guys from the REALLY bad guys. Word up! They can't. So if you want to live, don't pretend to be a badass, waving a gun, failing to respond to Police instructions in a public place.
It's really not that hard. I've spent years in the states and hardly ever been shot at all.. But maybe thats cos I am white?
I read this and thought it articulately and perfectly summed up the whole situation and there wasn't much more to say.The problem is that too many people think that Hollywood gun fights when the baddies always telegraph that they are about to shoot , so that the cops can get their shot off first is in some way real or achievable in real life. Look, I simply cannot believe that any US citizen is not fully cogniscent of the fact that if you screw around with the Police out there you're gonna get hurt. Fail to respond to clear instructions and be carrying a gun (the replica element is irrelevant in this context) and you stand a high % chance of going to the morgue. Everyone knows that. The fault here is with people who think that the Police are clairvoyant and can magically tell the good guys from the not so good guys from the bad guys from the REALLY bad guys. Word up! They can't. So if you want to live, don't pretend to be a badass, waving a gun, failing to respond to Police instructions in a public place.
It's really not that hard. I've spent years in the states and hardly ever been shot at all.. But maybe thats cos I am white?
And then you ruined it by saying "Word up!"
THis has ruined me because I agree with you completely and yet I feel totally compelled to try and disagree with someone who says "word up" without irony.
sorry BSW. I don't know what came over me! It won't happen again.KemP said:
Kid is strolling around pointing the gun at other people. Police car arrives and it looks like he reaches for the gun. Police shot him.
Im struggling to see what the issue is.
He was asked to drop tne gun.Im struggling to see what the issue is.
Should he do this with his teeth?
Or should he use his hands?
He goes for it to drop it with his hands.
They shoot him.
Did they see he was yiung?
Would they have done tne same if he had been in a pushchair or pram?
He was 12.
I don't see anyone else in the vodeo in danger.
Yep it is a dangerous job.
But iyou are talking about someone's life.
Randomthoughts said:
I don't care. Kid is obviously pointing it at people and at the point where he doesn't breathe correctly when they're instructing him then it's perfectly fair that they put him out of his misery.
I would never ask an officer of the law to stand in harm's way for any longer than is absolutely necessary to do their job. Kid or no kid, the gun gets touched or moved towards the cop and they've my 110% backing to fill them with lead.
As i said before.I would never ask an officer of the law to stand in harm's way for any longer than is absolutely necessary to do their job. Kid or no kid, the gun gets touched or moved towards the cop and they've my 110% backing to fill them with lead.
You storm a 12 year old in a police car.
You wave guns at him.
You shout drop your gun.
What is he going to do?
A) cool calm collected a la Clint Eastwood, he calmly slowly removes his gun, preferably not with his hands, and it floats gently to tne floor.
B) he s
ts himself, rushes to tnrow tne gun down.He gets shot because he panicks, as most would.
What chance did tne kid have?
philv said:
Did tney order him to drop tne gun 3 times whilst driving towards him?
Or 3 times by 2 cops in 2 seconds.
He was 12.
I'd probably crap myself in that situation and make a wrong movement.
They told him to show his hands, he reached for the gun. Or 3 times by 2 cops in 2 seconds.
He was 12.
I'd probably crap myself in that situation and make a wrong movement.
If I was in a situation like that I would freeze (out of fear more than anything).
It would be cery interesting to see the dash cam footage, assuming they have a dash cam (it might just be highway cars that have it).
Edited by 98elise on Thursday 27th November 12:04
KemP said:
Kaj91 said:
Kid is strolling around pointing the gun at other people. Police car arrives and it looks like he reaches for the gun. Police shot him. Im struggling to see what the issue is.
so called said:
. So apparently the kid was shot within 2 seconds of the Police car stopping.
That doesn't give much time to analyse, negotiate, take control of a situation.
But then if your idea/instructions in taking control is to simply shoot to kill, then you don't need to waste time on the first two details.
The US certainly does portray an attitude that life is cheep.
I am not sure how you calculate 2 seconds. Granted the Youtube video might last 2 or 3 seconds between arrival of the car and the shooting, but since the video is time lapsed to some degree the ACTUAL time of the incident is somewhat longer. Possibly 2 or 3 times longer. So count to 9 ( say) in your head and see how long that is. Then imagine you have someone that you believe is armed in front of you. He might be a kid, but he's a very big kid ( looks older than 12 in the pics I have seen) and its not exactly unknown for American youths to be armed and to shoot people. That doesn't give much time to analyse, negotiate, take control of a situation.
But then if your idea/instructions in taking control is to simply shoot to kill, then you don't need to waste time on the first two details.
The US certainly does portray an attitude that life is cheep.
This is an utter tragedy for all concerned.
philv said:
He was asked to drop tne gun.
Should he do this with his teeth?
Or should he use his hands?
He goes for it to drop it with his hands.
They shoot him.
Did they see he was yiung?
Would they have done tne same if he had been in a pushchair or pram?
He was 12.
I don't see anyone else in the vodeo in danger.
Yep it is a dangerous job.
But iyou are talking about someone's life.
He shouldn't have been waving a gun around in the first place. Do you really think he is out for an innocent stroll? He is pointing it at people not plinking coke tins in his garden. Is it not stated that he took the orange cap of the end of the barrel to make it look like a real gun?Should he do this with his teeth?
Or should he use his hands?
He goes for it to drop it with his hands.
They shoot him.
Did they see he was yiung?
Would they have done tne same if he had been in a pushchair or pram?
He was 12.
I don't see anyone else in the vodeo in danger.
Yep it is a dangerous job.
But iyou are talking about someone's life.
I cant see from the video whether the gun is in his hands or not. But to me it looks like he raises his hands up either bring the gun up or reaching for it.
Age shouldn't be used as an excuse. He is trying to scare people by pointing a gun at them and he paid the price
KemP said:
He shouldn't have been waving a gun around in the first place. Do you really think he is out for an innocent stroll? He is pointing it at people not plinking coke tins in his garden. Is it not stated that he took the orange cap of the end of the barrel to make it look like a real gun?
I cant see from the video whether the gun is in his hands or not. But to me it looks like he raises his hands up either bring the gun up or reaching for it.
Age shouldn't be used as an excuse. He is trying to scare people by pointing a gun at them and he paid the price
So you cannot see clearly in the video?I cant see from the video whether the gun is in his hands or not. But to me it looks like he raises his hands up either bring the gun up or reaching for it.
Age shouldn't be used as an excuse. He is trying to scare people by pointing a gun at them and he paid the price
So he is maybe going to raise his hands or throw the gun away.
Age not a factor?
So if he is 3 years old then the same applies?
3 year olds play with guns.
I used to pkay with toy guns as a kid.
Not everyone is a mature responsible person at age 12.
Part of the police's job is to access tne situation.
But whatever, the situation was rushed.
The cops train for this sort of situation.
The boy does not.
None of us know the truth of this.
Unless they have video coverage from the car noone will.
BoRED S2upid said:
Why did the officer decide the only course of action was to shoot to kill? First shot over his head or into the ground ? Second shot in a leg or shoulder? Nope shoot to kill before you get shot seems the only option.
Meanwhile, back in the real world.... Why does this st get rolled out every single time?philv said:
In the phone call to the police, the caller stated she was not sure if the gun was real or not.
I think the caller also said the gunman was on a swing.
It is a shame that this appears not to have bedn relayed to the patrol car.
The pertinent parts of the conversation were:I think the caller also said the gunman was on a swing.
It is a shame that this appears not to have bedn relayed to the patrol car.
Male, Black, Gun, Pointing at people.
Anything outside of that is speculation, and you can't turn up and say 'we know it's fake because some stranger said that it might be on a telephone call'. You turn up and deal with the gun being waved around and pointed at people.
philv said:
So you cannot see clearly in the video?
So he is maybe going to raise his hands or throw the gun away.
Age not a factor?
So if he is 3 years old then the same applies?
3 year olds play with guns.
I used to pkay with toy guns as a kid.
Not everyone is a mature responsible person at age 12.
Part of the police's job is to access tne situation.
But whatever, the situation was rushed.
The cops train for this sort of situation.
The boy does not.
None of us know the truth of this.
Unless they have video coverage from the car noone will.
To me it looks like he isnt raising hands or dropping the gun. I wasnt there and I didnt have to make the decision. The policeman who was there and had the information passed onto to him accessed the situation and decided that there was a threat and made his choice. Someone made a call to the police who was concerned enough to think it was a real gun being used in a inappropriate way.So he is maybe going to raise his hands or throw the gun away.
Age not a factor?
So if he is 3 years old then the same applies?
3 year olds play with guns.
I used to pkay with toy guns as a kid.
Not everyone is a mature responsible person at age 12.
Part of the police's job is to access tne situation.
But whatever, the situation was rushed.
The cops train for this sort of situation.
The boy does not.
None of us know the truth of this.
Unless they have video coverage from the car noone will.
I had bb guns when I was younger and I shot real weapons later on. It was drilled into me from a very young age you do not point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot and you don't dick around with them, real, replica, unloaded or loaded.
Randomthoughts said:
Every chance to not wake up that morning and decide to go out pointing a gun at people.
He chose to point a gun at people. Who cares if he gets splattered? He's hardly the greatest loss society will ever suffer.
Dear god a 12 year old is dead what a horrible thing to say. He chose to point a gun at people. Who cares if he gets splattered? He's hardly the greatest loss society will ever suffer.
Randomthoughts said:
The pertinent parts of the conversation were:
Male, Black, Gun, Pointing at people.
Anything outside of that is speculation, and you can't turn up and say 'we know it's fake because some stranger said that it might be on a telephone call'. You turn up and deal with the gun being waved around and pointed at people.
The most pertinent part is the word black.Male, Black, Gun, Pointing at people.
Anything outside of that is speculation, and you can't turn up and say 'we know it's fake because some stranger said that it might be on a telephone call'. You turn up and deal with the gun being waved around and pointed at people.
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