12-year-old playing with fake gun shot dead by Ohio police.

12-year-old playing with fake gun shot dead by Ohio police.

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Discussion

onyx39

11,109 posts

149 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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As I have said on Facebook, the only person with whom I have any sympathy, is the officer.
He had a gun pulled on him, and rightly or wrongly, he fired. A decision with which he will have to live for the rest of his life.
All because a 12 year old kid did not do as he was told.

Oakey

27,523 posts

215 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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Mr GrimNasty said:
The kid didn't look 12 - could have passed for 16 or 18, the gun looked real. He failed to comply and went for the gun.
That's why toy guns have to/should be made to look like toys.
In a country where some of the real guns are made to look like toys?


Randomthoughts

917 posts

132 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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downstairs said:
I wonder why the news report quoted in the OP bothers to make so clear that the boy was black and that the 911 operator asked "twice" whether he was black or white, but then doesn't mention whether the responding officers were black or white? They seem to feel that race is quite key to the whole thing, even in their reporting - so it seems a bit remiss not to check that and put it in too.
Amazing, isn't it. The operator couldn't possibly be asking so as to speed the identification of the individual with the gun, it was so that they could tell the cops that "dis nigga needs capped" or whatever the rioters over the next couple of days will look to have us believe.

[Sarcasm]
Kid was probably playing with his gun, looked in a mirror and saw this:



Figuring that you can take on loads of police, then jump in their car and disappear into the next town never to be seen again, he probably fancied his chances.
[/Sarcasm]

We're heading for a world that reminds me of a scene in a film/TV program I saw a while ago, where a guy had to describe someone and was going through every obscure characteristic about the person he was identifying, who was the (only) black guy, but wouldn't say that it was the black guy...

menousername

2,106 posts

141 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
lost for words by some of the comments here, truly shocking.

police are justified in shooting to kill 12 year old boys are they? who is playing with what he feels is a toy gun?

police would NOT have been looking for/able to see the orange safety markings even if they were present. nobody knows who removed them and nobody knows whether it was done with the intention of making the gun pass for a real one.

do the police not receive any training at all? surely competent highly trained police officers trusted with firearms are rational, calm and experienced enough to analyse the situation and make an appropriate response... if not then they should not be employed in that role.




Randomthoughts

917 posts

132 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
menousername said:
police would NOT have been looking for/able to see the orange safety markings even if they were present. nobody knows who removed them and nobody knows whether it was done with the intention of making the gun pass for a real one.
The only reason to remove them is to make it pass for a real one, and the police will have been looking for exactly that. When your life hangs in the arms of a 12 year old kid who has been reported as pointing a firearm at people who then, instead of putting his hands up, pulls out said firearm which then doesn't have the obvious orange markings, do you take your chances or risk that it's an unhinged kid, maybe like these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulge...

I wouldn't be waiting to find out if I get to see my family that night, on the offchance that the kid with the gun has a fake one or isn't going to use it.

onyx39

11,109 posts

149 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
menousername said:
lost for words by some of the comments here, truly shocking.

police are justified in shooting to kill 12 year old boys are they? who is playing with what he feels is a toy gun?

police would NOT have been looking for/able to see the orange safety markings even if they were present. nobody knows who removed them and nobody knows whether it was done with the intention of making the gun pass for a real one.

do the police not receive any training at all? surely competent highly trained police officers trusted with firearms are rational, calm and experienced enough to analyse the situation and make an appropriate response... if not then they should not be employed in that role.
OK... kid was 12. Was he showing a birth certificate? Did he look 12? Even if he WAS 12, what's to say he's not capable of shooting a cop?

At what range did he shoot the kid? 10 feet, 50 feet? Could he even see the gun properly. The facts as we know it, he challenged the kid, who completely ignored him, and went for his gun. I am sure that the Police are trained, but I am equally sure that as part of their training, if they are under threat, it is their job to stop that threat.

SpeedMattersNot

4,506 posts

195 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Randomthoughts said:
Would you all be out defending the children in this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulge...

?

Children, like dogs, like all creatures, are the product of their guardians and custodians. Bring them up to behave that way, and they will behave that way.

I knew from age 5 that guns were bad, and from age of about 8 that running around with one was only going to end badly. I wasn't allowed my spud gun out of the garden, and I'd never have dreamt of pointing it at people. Ever.
You've really answered my question, you just haven't realised it. Do you think this kid had a similar upbringing to you?

If you do believe that we are completely the product of our guardians/custodians then don't you think that the blame should be aimed at them instead?

I think it's a horrible situation; it's neither the police officers fault, nor the kids - strictly the parents responsibility at this age.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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I think trying to judge the events from a UK perspective is futile. We're talking about a country with massive levels of gun crime, much easier availability of guns. Probability of a gun in a kid's hands being real is negligible here, very real there.

MajorProblem

4,700 posts

163 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
menousername said:
lost for words by some of the comments here, truly shocking.

police are justified in shooting to kill 12 year old boys are they? who is playing with what he feels is a toy gun?

police would NOT have been looking for/able to see the orange safety markings even if they were present. nobody knows who removed them and nobody knows whether it was done with the intention of making the gun pass for a real one.

do the police not receive any training at all? surely competent highly trained police officers trusted with firearms are rational, calm and experienced enough to analyse the situation and make an appropriate response... if not then they should not be employed in that role.
You've never seen a US airsoft gun have you? The end of the barrel (at least 1-2 inches) is bright day-glo orange!

Randomthoughts

917 posts

132 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
SpeedMattersNot said:
ou've really answered my question, you just haven't realised it. Do you think this kid had a similar upbringing to you?
I doubt it, I didn't eat that much fried chicken as a kid.

[/Casual racism]

In all seriousness though, no, I don't imagine he had a similar upbringing. I wouldn't however attribute no responsibility to the child. There's enough of this people getting shot on the TV and whatnot and the riots over the other guy getting shot to suggest that the police are worth behaving in front of. Maybe largely the parent's responsibility. Not entirely.

Matt Harper

6,613 posts

200 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
menousername said:
police would NOT have been looking for/able to see the orange safety markings even if they were present.
Interested to learn the basis for this pearl of wisdom....

Randomthoughts

917 posts

132 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
MajorProblem said:
Aside from it looking like there's no mag in that fake (probably taken out, but either way doesn't mean there isn't one in the chamber) there's fk all obvious to me that that's fake.

nitrodave

1,262 posts

137 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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I wish I could say this surprises me but it doesn't.

The amount of videos on tubeface with aggressive coppers treating anyone and everyone as wanted criminals is ridiculous.

They have mega problems there because of guns and what mystifies me is why they're so readily available and legal to own.

One failed shoe bomb attempt and the whole world has to take their shoes off at an airport. Meanwhile over 30 fatal shootings at schools in recent years and still no change to their gun laws.

Idiots.

Chris Type R

8,018 posts

248 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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Matt Harper said:
Interested to learn the basis for this pearl of wisdom....
I think that the articles suggest that the gun was tucked into clothing, so the barrel would not have been visible.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
This is the reason it's illegal to modify any toy gun in the USA to look like a real one.

The kid was clearly showing off to his mates and unfortunately paid the price.

Chris Type R

8,018 posts

248 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
This is the reason it's illegal to modify any toy gun in the USA to look like a real one.

The kid was clearly showing off to his mates and unfortunately paid the price.
Interestingly (to me anyway), Ohio permits the open carrying of firearms.

wiki said:
Open carry

Ohio is a traditional open-carry state. The open-carry of firearms by those who legally possess the firearm is a legal activity in Ohio with or without a license. While legal, the practice is not common in urban areas and often results in police responding. Various cases of harassment by police on those open carrying have been documented. Furthermore one must have a concealed handgun license to carry a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle regardless of whether or not it is concealed.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I used to live (indeed half my family come from) Cleveland Ohio.

The Suburb of Parma, to be exact.

Never saw anyone carrying a weapon openly. Indeed my cousin was grilled off a policeman for carrying a baseball bat in his car


Greg_D

6,542 posts

245 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
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Du1point8 said:
Elroy Blue said:
How I'd love to hear a UK Police chief speak to the press like this, but the message is very clear and very true

http://clashdaily.com/2014/11/boom-milwaukee-polic...
some of the comments on that video are intense...
Quite,

it puts it in perspective what am impossible job the police have sometimes, doesn't it?

It simply isn't fair, the police are literally tied up in red tape and the crims have none, it isn't a level playing field.
EG. let a cop pin someone down with an ounce more pressure than determined appropriate in a calm courtroom and it's their job!!!

Matt Harper

6,613 posts

200 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Chris Type R said:
I think that the articles suggest that the gun was tucked into clothing, so the barrel would not have been visible.
Except that he brandished the weapon, which is why the police acted as they did. "Thug-Life" has a lot to answer for.