BTL as a pension fund - why not?

[ATG]

I'm afraid the most likely outcome is that you're going to shoulder the pain along with the rest of us. Were I you, I'd certainly be factoring that in to my plans. Relying on elaborate tax arrangements is also high risk. If a loophole is legal, lots of people will exploit it and the loophole will get closed. If the loophole isn't getting exploited, then the chances are it isn't a loophole at all and you'll be in the poop with HMRC eventually.

The one group who aren't culpable in this whole mess are the young. They haven't created it, they haven't benefited from it. By the time I retire they will be this country's leaders and a large proportion of its voters and tax payers. I don't expect they'll look too sympathetically on our plight. If we bought into a property market bubble, I'm expecting them to tell us to wear it.

[LucreLout]

JagLover said:

Not quite sure why your personal tax avoidance or evasion strategies are dependent on property values.

It's a balance between social conscience and the innate desire to look after my own. Someone has to kick in for the NHS, and looking at my tax demand, it's me.
That said, I have to retire some day too, so while I let gordons retirement rampage slide, a further attack on my retirement can't go unanswered.

It's not all altruistic hippy st though. Restructuring extensively will take time and incur risks. Risk reward balancing suggests my current tax strategy works for now.

[tannhauser]

LucreLout said:

Eric Mc said:

What type of downward expectation should those seeking a place to live make?

They should be looking at what they can afford, not what their baby boomer parents could afford. Those days are gone and they aren't coming back.

If you can afford a one bed flat needing work, buy that and do the work. In a few years you'll have enough equity to buy something bigger.

The trouble with most of those howling about property is that due to their age, they're gen y or gen me me me, and they really do think they're worth it.

Unable to afford a 4 bed detached like mammy and daddy bought does not equate to a lack of access. It equates to unrealistic ambitions.

My dad was a factory worker. I work in the City. I managed to buy the same sort of house I grew up in because I studied hard, worked hard, and saved hard for a decade, and have a significantly higher income than my parents. I was lucky. If, however, you had middle class parents and you're middle class yourself, well, you'll have to aspire to the sort of property factory workers bought in your folks generation. That's life.

fk right off with this smug ste.

Why is it so unrealistic for an average Joe to afford an average 3/4 bed house, just like his parents did?! This country has fked up the younger generation - and future generations - beyond belief.

[anonymous-user]

tannhauser said:

Why is it so unrealistic for an average Joe to afford an average 3/4 bed house, just like his parents did?! This country has fked up the younger generation - and future generations - beyond belief.

Have you listened to yourself? Jesus. The world does not owe you a standard of living. The reason Joe can't afford a house like his parents did is that they had the gall to live far longer than the actuarial tables said they would when they were promised their pensions and healthcare for life. If only they would have the common decency to just stop being ill and die huh?

[tannhauser]

fblm said:

Have you listened to yourself? Jesus. The world does not owe you a standard of living. The reason Joe can't afford a house like his parents did is that they had the gall to live far longer than the actuarial tables said they would when they were promised their pensions and healthcare for life. If only they would have the common decency to just stop being ill and die huh?

Shove it up your arse. In a developed, and supposedly civilised country such as the UK; expectation of a decent standard of living/housing in return for an honest day's work is NOT an unreasonable expectation.

The reasons the younger generation are priced out are many; and it's not only because baby boomers have "had it good", and are living longer. How the masses at large cannot see this is absolutely astounding.

[vescaegg]

tannhauser said:

Shove it up your arse. In a developed, and supposedly civilised country such as the UK; expectation of a decent standard of living/housing in return for an honest day's work is NOT an unreasonable expectation.

The reasons the younger generation are priced out are many; and it's not only because baby boomers have "had it good", and are living longer. How the masses at large cannot see this is absolutely astounding.

A one bed flat is an acceptable standard of living. I grew up on a council estate without two sticks to rub together and now live in my own 4 bed house in one of the most expensive parts of the country; I'm 28.

My friends still live at home or in house shares. Guess what, they pissed off to uni doing bks for 3 or 4 years then 'still didn't know what they wanted to do' while I was working and I had enough for a deposit by the time they finished messing around. Now they are complaining their degrees haven't gotten them a £50k (or any!) job! They are not special; they are not owed anything just like I wasnt.

Have a read of this.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yup...

It's spot on as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by vescaegg on Thursday 27th November 21:21

[LucreLout]

tannhauser said:

fk right off with this smug ste.

Why is it so unrealistic for an average Joe to afford an average 3/4 bed house, just like his parents did?! This country has fked up the younger generation - and future generations - beyond belief.

Its unrealistic because their parents offshored too many jobs, while building too few houses, having too many children, and an open door immigration policy.

Net effect of globalisation is reducing living standards in the west. Right or wrong, that is what it means. You'll just have to dig deep and suck it up, because you sure as st can't change it.

My generation got fked over by the boomers. Its not going to allow gen y to give it a pounding too.

Cut your cloth according to your means, and wind your entitled neck in.

[LucreLout]

tannhauser said:

Shove it up your arse. In a developed, and supposedly civilised country such as the UK; expectation of a decent standard of living/housing in return for an honest day's work is NOT an unreasonable expectation.

It's not unreasonable, but your definition of decent most likely is unrealistic.

Lets say we start building houses and cut out higher rate tax deferral on pension contributions. What do you think will happen? Who do you think will buy the houses?

If you want shot of BTL you're going to have to lobby for significantly increased state pension payouts and a contract that can't be varied. Then you'll have to decide what to cut to pay for that. Otherwise the pension contributions will find other ways to make your life more expensive to fund the retirement costs the owners of the capital.

[LucreLout]

vescaegg said:

A one bed flat is an acceptable standard of living. I grew up on a council estate without two sticks to rub together and now live in my own 4 bed house in one of the most expensive parts of the country; I'm 28.

Outstanding result!! Well done that man.

[heppers75]

tannhauser said:

fk right off with this smug ste.

Why is it so unrealistic for an average Joe to afford an average 3/4 bed house, just like his parents did?! This country has fked up the younger generation - and future generations - beyond belief.

There are over 650 properties within a 15 mile radius of my postcode for under £125K that have 3/4 bedrooms in a mixture of areas.

Tell me how that is unattainable?

[steveT350C]

vescaegg said:

tannhauser said:

Shove it up your arse. In a developed, and supposedly civilised country such as the UK; expectation of a decent standard of living/housing in return for an honest day's work is NOT an unreasonable expectation.

The reasons the younger generation are priced out are many; and it's not only because baby boomers have "had it good", and are living longer. How the masses at large cannot see this is absolutely astounding.

A one bed flat is an acceptable standard of living. I grew up on a council estate without two sticks to rub together and now live in my own 4 bed house in one of the most expensive parts of the country; I'm 28.

My friends still live at home or in house shares. Guess what, they pissed off to uni doing bks for 3 or 4 years then 'still didn't know what they wanted to do' while I was working and I had enough for a deposit by the time they finished messing around. Now they are complaining their degrees haven't gotten them a £50k (or any!) job! They are not special; they are not owed anything just like I wasnt.

Have a read of this.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yup...

It's spot on as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by vescaegg on Thursday 27th November 21:21

It is spot on, as is your post vascaegg. Wise words.


Tannhauser, may I suggest you stop blaming others. Suck it up, grow a pair and make like a man.

[tannhauser]

steveT350C said:

vescaegg said:

tannhauser said:

Shove it up your arse. In a developed, and supposedly civilised country such as the UK; expectation of a decent standard of living/housing in return for an honest day's work is NOT an unreasonable expectation.

The reasons the younger generation are priced out are many; and it's not only because baby boomers have "had it good", and are living longer. How the masses at large cannot see this is absolutely astounding.

A one bed flat is an acceptable standard of living. I grew up on a council estate without two sticks to rub together and now live in my own 4 bed house in one of the most expensive parts of the country; I'm 28.

My friends still live at home or in house shares. Guess what, they pissed off to uni doing bks for 3 or 4 years then 'still didn't know what they wanted to do' while I was working and I had enough for a deposit by the time they finished messing around. Now they are complaining their degrees haven't gotten them a £50k (or any!) job! They are not special; they are not owed anything just like I wasnt.

Have a read of this.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yup...

It's spot on as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by vescaegg on Thursday 27th November 21:21

It is spot on, as is your post vascaegg. Wise words.


Tannhauser, may I suggest you stop blaming others. Suck it up, grow a pair and make like a man.

The smugness is palpable. But then this is PH.

Vescaegg - you own your own house at 28? Well done. Or do you mean the bank owns it?

SteveT350C - I blame the short sightedness and greed of successive generations and governments, as well as bad luck/timing on my part. FYI I've worked hard, studied hard, and saved hard and have several years' salary in cash savings. Am I about to spunk it on overpriced pwopetee? Like ste I am! I'm prepared to either sit it out, or fk of abroad with my savings and skills.

[tannhauser]

LucreLout said:

vescaegg said:

A one bed flat is an acceptable standard of living. I grew up on a council estate without two sticks to rub together and now live in my own 4 bed house in one of the most expensive parts of the country; I'm 28.

Outstanding result!! Well done that man.

Get a room!

[vescaegg]

tannhauser said:

The smugness is palpable. But then this is PH.

Vescaegg - you own your own house at 28? Well done. Or do you mean the bank owns it?

SteveT350C - I blame the short sightedness and greed of successive generations and governments, as well as bad luck/timing on my part. FYI I've worked hard, studied hard, and saved hard and have several years' salary in cash savings. Am I about to spunk it on overpriced pwopetee? Like ste I am! I'm prepared to either sit it out, or fk of abroad with my savings and skills.

The bank owns some of it sure but I'm chipping away by overpaying each month. Do you want people to be able to buy a house outright? That may be a little ambitious....

I'd suggest leave this wonderful green land if you are thinking about it. If you think you are going to wait and wait until things are the price you want them to be, you may be disappointed.

I am annoyed by how much property costs, it cost me nearly £200k extra to move from a 3 bed to a 4 bed with garage. The way I see it, I can complain about it and nothing will happen, stay where I am and not get to where I wanna be in life, or I can suck it up and see how far I get and not complain. I don't bother complaining about things I can't change so I went for it because I could afford it despite how annoying it may have been.

Edited by vescaegg on Thursday 27th November 21:51

[wolves_wanderer]

steveT350C said:

It is spot on, as is your post vascaegg. Wise words.


Tannhauser, may I suggest you stop blaming others. Suck it up, grow a pair and make like a man.

I didn't see any blaming, more a general moan. Funny that when "da yoot" moan they are patronised and told to grow a pair but when older generations moan about entitled youngsters wanting an equivalent standard of living everyone agrees and joins in...

[tannhauser]

vescaegg said:

tannhauser said:

The smugness is palpable. But then this is PH.

Vescaegg - you own your own house at 28? Well done. Or do you mean the bank owns it?

SteveT350C - I blame the short sightedness and greed of successive generations and governments, as well as bad luck/timing on my part. FYI I've worked hard, studied hard, and saved hard and have several years' salary in cash savings. Am I about to spunk it on overpriced pwopetee? Like ste I am! I'm prepared to either sit it out, or fk of abroad with my savings and skills.

The bank owns some of it sure but I'm chipping away by overpaying each month. Do you want people to be able to buy a house outright? That may be a little ambitious....

Of course I don't. But people lose sight of the fact that it's not really owned until paid for.

You're being prudent paying back the capital - but many are not, and are way over-extended and in it over their heads on massive IO mortgages. They have no means or plan in place to pay it back - indeed a major ststorm is brewing when these mortgages come to an end. Same applies to monthly payments when rates inevitably rise.

[heppers75]

tannhauser said:

vescaegg said:

tannhauser said:

The smugness is palpable. But then this is PH.

Vescaegg - you own your own house at 28? Well done. Or do you mean the bank owns it?

SteveT350C - I blame the short sightedness and greed of successive generations and governments, as well as bad luck/timing on my part. FYI I've worked hard, studied hard, and saved hard and have several years' salary in cash savings. Am I about to spunk it on overpriced pwopetee? Like ste I am! I'm prepared to either sit it out, or fk of abroad with my savings and skills.

The bank owns some of it sure but I'm chipping away by overpaying each month. Do you want people to be able to buy a house outright? That may be a little ambitious....

Of course I don't. But people lose sight of the fact that it's not really owned until paid for.

You're being prudent paying back the capital - but many are not, and are way over-extended and in it over their heads on massive IO mortgages. They have no means or plan in place to pay it back - indeed a major ststorm is brewing when these mortgages come to an end. Same applies to monthly payments when rates inevitably rise.

What sort of price do you think you need to pay for an "acceptable" house just out of interest?

[wolves_wanderer]

LucreLout said:

wolves_wanderer said:

You talk disparigingly about Generation mememe and then threaten to throw your toys out of the pram if "too many" houses are built and it affects the value of yours? What a selfish baby you are, "I'm alright Jack and f everyone else"

Labour wrecked my pension. I increased contributions as much as I could, but dividend taxes coupled with falling annuity rates mean it won't be enough. To say nothing of the ever increasing age at which I can access it. Downsizing my property to make up the shortfall is plan b.

Having had one retirement option removed by the government, I simply can't afford to lose the second without taking drastic steps to recover my position.

As my biggest cost by far is taxes, taxes are where those cuts will have to fall. Its not my preference, but it is plan c.

There is no plan d.

I see no reason to work until I die to fund the early retirement of baby boomers and the over inflated demands of gen y.

We are where we are. Right now I can afford to pay taxes and later downsize for retirement. I'd have preferred plan a, but that ship has sailed - no way to recover from 20 years of divs taxed away.

The labour government created the btl and housing bubbles. Too late to cry over spilled milk now. Had they left pensions well alone as literally every advisor was telling them, ordinary people would have been able to stick to conventional retirement plans. Baby boomers and state workers have their solid gold final salary schemes. Gen y have time on their side. Gen X are screwed without property to help cover the short fall.

A fair and reasonable answer and one with which I agree in part. As a gen x/y crossover myself it seems each generation is taking a different kind but similar degree of punishment, I wouldn't want to be 18 now though.

[LucreLout]

tannhauser said:

I'm prepared to either sit it out, or fk of abroad with my savings and skills.

Don't let the door hit you on the arse on your way out. Kthxbye.

[LucreLout]

tannhauser said:

Get a room!

Vescaegg and I disagree on almost everything. In fact, the only thing I think we've ever agreed on is that you'll have to be smarter, work harder, or accept a lower standard of living than you feel entitled too.