BTL as a pension fund - why not?
Discussion
crankedup said:
RichB said:
crankedup said:
I do my best.
And... you drove a Griff so you can't be all bad jdw1234 said:
Are you really likely to have an average waeg of £26k in areas where property is an affordable multiple of £26k though?
I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Where I'm from in Cornwall the average salary depending on source is circa £18k, in some parts its under £14k. If you want a 2 bed flat/terrace you'll be looking at £100k, more like £125k for something turn-key. Do-able for a working couple but then you've got to be a working couple in the first place which is a challenge in itself in Cornwall.I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
RichB said:
crankedup said:
RichB said:
crankedup said:
I do my best. And... you drove a Griff so you can't be all bad 
I have kept my Vauxhall 20/60 though and the 1929 Eccles touring caravan it tows. My intention is now to find some pre 1930's again to fill the hole in my heart left by the demise of my little collection.So I lost the little Suffolk cottage in the countryside and a good part of my car collection, maybe this is why I may sometimes read to be angry and misguided at times.
Is that your Griff on your web page, looks superb.
Frio3535 said:
jdw1234 said:
Are you really likely to have an average waeg of £26k in areas where property is an affordable multiple of £26k though?
I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Where I'm from in Cornwall the average salary depending on source is circa £18k, in some parts its under £14k. If you want a 2 bed flat/terrace you'll be looking at £100k, more like £125k for something turn-key. Do-able for a working couple but then you've got to be a working couple in the first place which is a challenge in itself in Cornwall.I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Ok there are a few pages of crappy caravans and a few garages, but in and amongst that starting at around £50k there a few hundred 1-3 bed flats and houses.
markcoznottz said:
heppers75 said:
economicpygmy said:
heppers75 said:
Then they get to do what we all did, work their way up if they are good enough! 20:13[/footnote]
That is increasingly unlikely as inflation trends upwards, credit avaliability and wages remain static. Sustainable growth is an interesting phrase...
Average wage = £26k a year, seemingly lots of housing stock available well within the multiples of that income for mortgage purposes.
The one thing that has always bothered me about the ever increasing bleating on about the increase in the "average" house price is the fact that is the real reason the average is going up because there are a greater number of expensive houses, or that housers in the middle and upper tiers have disproportionately increased in value, which does not mean there are fewer affordable ones?
I don't know if that is true, however when you actually bother to look at the houses that are out there for sale there does seem to be many thousands of them all over the country which are more than affordable on average wages.
Is it that there is an expectation that the average wage should be able to afford the average house?
Regardless, lending and leverage amounts have been increasing for quite some time. And what was HTB/HTB2 all about? What about keyworkers? Im sure the last time I looked they were 4-8x possibly from LR or Nationwide stats.
I wish I had time to dig through the stats as its an interesting question (type of house vs percentage increased).
Not sure why resenting having to spend 10 times your salary to buy a hovel is seen as an attitude problem. When we hear that speculators are pushing prices up in commodity markets or on the stock exchange we generally think of that as A Bad Thing. We generally think of rampant inflation as A Bad Thing. But when both happen in the housing market, people pipe up "it's always been this way, it's normal, I had to suffer this so the next generation can too." Might almost think you were hearing the voice of a vested interest.
We do have a choice here. We could reform the housing market to make it more efficient, and to provide the goods people want at more reasonable prices. If this was anything other than housing you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would complain about those objectives in principle.
We do have a choice here. We could reform the housing market to make it more efficient, and to provide the goods people want at more reasonable prices. If this was anything other than housing you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would complain about those objectives in principle.
heppers75 said:
Frio3535 said:
jdw1234 said:
Are you really likely to have an average waeg of £26k in areas where property is an affordable multiple of £26k though?
I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Where I'm from in Cornwall the average salary depending on source is circa £18k, in some parts its under £14k. If you want a 2 bed flat/terrace you'll be looking at £100k, more like £125k for something turn-key. Do-able for a working couple but then you've got to be a working couple in the first place which is a challenge in itself in Cornwall.I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Ok there are a few pages of crappy caravans and a few garages, but in and amongst that starting at around £50k there a few hundred 1-3 bed flats and houses.
economicpygmy said:
heppers75 said:
Frio3535 said:
jdw1234 said:
Are you really likely to have an average waeg of £26k in areas where property is an affordable multiple of £26k though?
I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Where I'm from in Cornwall the average salary depending on source is circa £18k, in some parts its under £14k. If you want a 2 bed flat/terrace you'll be looking at £100k, more like £125k for something turn-key. Do-able for a working couple but then you've got to be a working couple in the first place which is a challenge in itself in Cornwall.I.e. I highly doubt the average wage is £26k in the North of South West.
Ok there are a few pages of crappy caravans and a few garages, but in and amongst that starting at around £50k there a few hundred 1-3 bed flats and houses.
Sarcasm aside the same is true if you put in Launceston and 40 mile radius. TBH I would challenge anyone to pick pretty much any UK location and then not find 1000+ results for property under £100k within 40 miles, I say that as the same rings true if you put in 40 miles of Mayfair!
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find....
Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st December 19:50
Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st December 19:54
ATG said:
Just because they are offered at under 100k, it doesn't mean they represent value for money. Those searches you've made don't really tell us much at all.
Why not? Those searches tell you that there are literally thousands of houses available all over the UK for under £100k, or are you suggesting that these thousands of adverts are all somehow an elaborate plot or simply lies?
ATG said:
Sorry, thought the bit where I said "value for money" was pretty easy to grasp.
Value for money by what criteria? Also if you think they are all lies, use Zoopla for sold prices instead and you will see how many properties have actually sold for under 100k as well, the figures pretty much stack up.
So please tell me by what definition these houses under £100k do not represent value for money, as you have made the statement I am assuming you have the facts to back it up no?
Possibly at the risk of getting back to topic, new legislation requires landlords to do the Home Office's job for them without any form of recompense. We'll have to check immigration status on those already in the country before renting to them; I thought that there was a government agency that checked on whether people were allowed to stay here.
I see BTL as a target for future tax rises, populist meddling and scapegoating for governmental policy failures. Those evil landlords had better shape up................
I see BTL as a target for future tax rises, populist meddling and scapegoating for governmental policy failures. Those evil landlords had better shape up................
Who said anything about lies?
Value for money is (mainly) just a matter of perception. If potential buyers aren't actually purchasing a good, that tells you how the offered price is being percieved. A couple of years ago there were apartments in Port Glasgow that were eventually offered for 5k. Any price above that didn't represent value for money to any potential buyer as demonstrated by the fact that ... no one was prepared to pay more.
A would-be seller's perception of value is no more right or wrong than a would-be buyer's. If they can both agree on a price then, great, the market has worked. If they disagree, then there's a standoff that might go on forever. Either someone has to capitulate, or find a way of changing the dynamics of the market.
Help to buy, joint ownership arrangements for key workers changed the demand side dynamics. It allowed buyers to spend more.That is usually the wrong thing to do. Supply side reform tends to be better as it makes more stuff available to more people. Surely we'd agree that that is generally a good thing? If there is scope for supply side reform, it seems to me there is actually a moral imperative to enact it.
Value for money is (mainly) just a matter of perception. If potential buyers aren't actually purchasing a good, that tells you how the offered price is being percieved. A couple of years ago there were apartments in Port Glasgow that were eventually offered for 5k. Any price above that didn't represent value for money to any potential buyer as demonstrated by the fact that ... no one was prepared to pay more.
A would-be seller's perception of value is no more right or wrong than a would-be buyer's. If they can both agree on a price then, great, the market has worked. If they disagree, then there's a standoff that might go on forever. Either someone has to capitulate, or find a way of changing the dynamics of the market.
Help to buy, joint ownership arrangements for key workers changed the demand side dynamics. It allowed buyers to spend more.That is usually the wrong thing to do. Supply side reform tends to be better as it makes more stuff available to more people. Surely we'd agree that that is generally a good thing? If there is scope for supply side reform, it seems to me there is actually a moral imperative to enact it.
Rovinghawk said:
Possibly at the risk of getting back to topic, new legislation requires landlords to do the Home Office's job for them without any form of recompense. We'll have to check immigration status on those already in the country before renting to them; I thought that there was a government agency that checked on whether people were allowed to stay here.
I see BTL as a target for future tax rises, populist meddling and scapegoating for governmental policy failures. Those evil landlords had better shape up................
I think I agree... I see BTL as a target for future tax rises, populist meddling and scapegoating for governmental policy failures. Those evil landlords had better shape up................
It's one thing for employers to check someone's eligibility to work, but a landlord checking immigration status? Sounds like pointless "red tape" One of our freedoms (British values?) we have is that we don't have to produce our identity papers for scrutiny by all & sundry.
heppers75 said:
Boo hoo, someone might have to commute an hour or so to get to work - total hardship... When what they should really have as they are just entitled to you it you know... is a 4 bed detached house, study and dining room, double garage and garden for £125k, within walking distance of their chosen place of work so they can have a nice V8 on the driveway and 3 foreign holidays a year!!!
Don't forget the costs involved. 100 mile trip per day fuel, repairs, all eating into that low wage.I don't believe in any kind of entitlement, including the kind given by the tax payer to private landlords en masse to house and subsidise the living of the less well off. A subsidy that almost certainly has many negative secondary effects. You have insinuated that the growth is sustainable and prices affordable across the UK(?). I believe the trend is not sustainable in a productive economy, especially an economy like ours with so much debt and contingent liabilities.
Anyway, in the long term legislation will probably hammer private landlords and pension funds will take there place. Fear not though, theres plenty of productive investments you can make to earn a return
economicpygmy said:
heppers75 said:
Boo hoo, someone might have to commute an hour or so to get to work - total hardship... When what they should really have as they are just entitled to you it you know... is a 4 bed detached house, study and dining room, double garage and garden for £125k, within walking distance of their chosen place of work so they can have a nice V8 on the driveway and 3 foreign holidays a year!!!
Don't forget the costs involved. 100 mile trip per day fuel, repairs, all eating into that low wage.I don't believe in any kind of entitlement, including the kind given by the tax payer to private landlords en masse to house and subsidise the living of the less well off. A subsidy that almost certainly has many negative secondary effects. You have insinuated that the growth is sustainable and prices affordable across the UK(?). I believe the trend is not sustainable in a productive economy, especially an economy like ours with so much debt and contingent liabilities.
Anyway, in the long term legislation will probably hammer private landlords and pension funds will take there place. Fear not though, theres plenty of productive investments you can make to earn a return
well there you go... I was once one of those people on that low wage, living in a crappy house with the 40 mile each way commute. It was hard f**king work but you do what you can and get on with it. You draw down a mortgage in said crappy house for a few years and as your wages grow you increase your equity. Rather than living in a slightly better place but paying rent you make the sensible choice and live in pretty much a s
t hole but you improve it as much as it practical. You can then sell that and move onwards to the next house, you do that again and then maybe again over say ten years and you know what you are in what is pretty much an "average" house. Then after that life takes you where it takes you, if you do well you carry onwards and upwards if you hold still then you have your average house etc etc. Just out of interest how is the taxpayer subsidising private landlords right now and what sort of entitlement do these private landlords have in your eyes?
As for how it might affect me, maybe, maybe not - I am geared well below 50% and despite many peoples advice to go higher I won't - mostly because I am genuinely concerned that the envy driven barn pots might actually succeed in coming up with something equally inventively destructive as it is stupid!
Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st December 22:23
ATG said:
Not sure why resenting having to spend 10 times your salary to buy a hovel is seen as an attitude problem. When we hear that speculators are pushing prices up in commodity markets or on the stock exchange we generally think of that as A Bad Thing. We generally think of rampant inflation as A Bad Thing. But when both happen in the housing market, people pipe up "it's always been this way, it's normal, I had to suffer this so the next generation can too." Might almost think you were hearing the voice of a vested interest.
We do have a choice here. We could reform the housing market to make it more efficient, and to provide the goods people want at more reasonable prices. If this was anything other than housing you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would complain about those objectives in principle.
Yet i imagine you want a return for your money held in a bank savings account and are quite keen for your pension to be managed efficiently and making a decent return?We do have a choice here. We could reform the housing market to make it more efficient, and to provide the goods people want at more reasonable prices. If this was anything other than housing you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would complain about those objectives in principle.
I dont mean this directly at you ATG, but the hypocrisy and ill thought out rants of some really do make me chuckle.
I am unconvinced we have a housing problem or quality of living problem in real terms in this country, what we have is a fixation on aspirational living and a lack of ability or willingness to achieve it, driven by nonsense reality tv and get rich quick 'celebrities' flaunting their lifestyles through various social media and broadcast media outlets.
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