Another year and another broken promise
Discussion
there will always be examples of benefit tourists, there will always be examples of hard working skilled immigrants
there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
menousername said:
there will always be examples of benefit tourists, there will always be examples of hard working skilled immigrants
there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
The whole point about a controlled system is that the targets are related to the country's needs. there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
Stopping all immigration makes little more sense than allowing uncontrolled immigration.
Where there are clearly defined skill shortages which cannot be met internally, then controlled immigration is the only credit approach.
sidicks said:
The whole point about a controlled system is that the targets are related to the country's needs.
Stopping all immigration makes little more sense than allowing uncontrolled immigration.
Where there are clearly defined skill shortages which cannot be met internally, then controlled immigration is the only credit approach.
why can they not be met internally?Stopping all immigration makes little more sense than allowing uncontrolled immigration.
Where there are clearly defined skill shortages which cannot be met internally, then controlled immigration is the only credit approach.
Yazar said:
ikarl said:
Yazar said:
b) understand the concept of percentages. For example there are 30 Million people in employment in the UK and only 2 million ish EU migrants + 5.5Million ish non-eu. So since 75% (22.5 Million) jobs are being done by UK citizens, Would you now agree that your labelling them as 'indigenous workshy morons' cannot be correct?
quick point - just because they are in work, does not mean they are working hard or to their full potential.Can you demonstrate that it is not a normal distribution curve?
sidicks said:
menousername said:
there will always be examples of benefit tourists, there will always be examples of hard working skilled immigrants
there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
The whole point about a controlled system is that the targets are related to the country's needs. there will be examples of work-shy Brits, there will be examples of hard working talented Brits
But as a society, as a country, where we choose to organize ourselves as a collective, represented by local and national Govt who are supposed to use our tax and provide services, education, infrastructure and a stable economic environment, etc etc, can we honestly say that net immigration of hundreds of thousands each and every year is not going to devastate this little island? 5 years = 1 million extra, give or take.
Ethnic background is irrelevant. Further, I also feel the idea that we should only allow skilled, educated immigration, is also erroneous. Its a difficult but important fact that we need to preserve employment, including well-paid employment, for the current population including born & bred and current immigrants. We need to press the stop button for a while.
There simply aren't the jobs. There simply aren't the school places. There simply aren't the hospital beds. There simply isn't enough money. Almost every aspect of our lives is under pressure and it is all to do with numbers...just numbers not ethnic origin...numbers.
At the age of 34 I am still not sure if I will ever have children because I just cannot envisage what life will be like for them here in the next 20 years... I cannot afford to put them through uni, buy them a place to live, therefore they will almost certainly spend the majority of their lives on low / no income.
I think it is time to wake up - it is not about ethnicity it is about cold hard numbers
Stopping all immigration makes little more sense than allowing uncontrolled immigration.
Where there are clearly defined skill shortages which cannot be met internally, then controlled immigration is the only credit approach.
Are we going to seriously say to a top lawyer/scientist/engineer/financier sorry the country is full, your job could be done by Waynetta instead.
We need proper immigration controls and a part of that will be VISAs for highly skilled migrants. Unlike many of the erroneous claims made for immigration in general they do genuinely have both an economic and fiscal benefit.
Yazar said:
30 million people in work Do you not know that we have employment statistics??
2011 census used for eu & non-eu to keep simple - link
As you can probably guess now, I actually put the numbers in favour of migrants by counting *all* of them as unemployed
, the reason purely to keep things simple as to the point of the vast majority of jobs in the UK are done by British nationals. The EU at their own last check have 600,000 of the 2.5 million as not in work .
Would appreciate if you could put some numbers into any replies rather than just incredulity.
I would appreciate if you didn’t use woefully inadequate estimates as fact. The figures will be on the low side in the extreme, that’s all we know from logistics and local council estimates. 2011 census used for eu & non-eu to keep simple - link
As you can probably guess now, I actually put the numbers in favour of migrants by counting *all* of them as unemployed
, the reason purely to keep things simple as to the point of the vast majority of jobs in the UK are done by British nationals. The EU at their own last check have 600,000 of the 2.5 million as not in work .Would appreciate if you could put some numbers into any replies rather than just incredulity.
crankedup said:
Nah, he isn't likely to agree with you or me any time soon, least I hope not otherwise this place would be as dull as ditch water. (www.I was brought up on a Council estate and dragged myself up to be a Director of six Companies.com). 
We have been here before petal... I will ask again just for fun though as you never replied last time or the time before when you made the same false statement. However in for a penny - Please direct us all to the post or statement where I have said I am a director of six companies?
Yazar said:
heppers75 said:
My observations on it are (admittedly based on my own experiences) they are doing a fair amount of jobs that many of our own citizens would not be willing to do.
If America tomorrow opened their borders and offered 4 times the UK minimum salary to work in a factory, brits would be exactly the same and would flock over. We live in a richer country than most in the world, so have a different outlook - for many it is not worthwhile economically to work abroad. People are people, some are lazy, some work hard-there is no difference on the whole between the brits and the poles in my opinion. heppers75 said:
experience of in more professional circles
Being raised working class plus having moved around the country and chosen to live in the cheap bits when single (as I am tight 
) I have heavy experience of living in the chavvy bits, scruffy foreign born but british citizen bits, the eastern european bit and also the nice bits. Happy to discuss any of them.The most recent move I did was a perm move to London. Now married and with wife working nearby we move dto a typical East London town. My experience of London easter europeans:
Professional work - great, no difference.
Living with the working class elements: - Great but minor cultural differences such as gathering in the street and drinking from cans whilst talking very loudly (living many to flats with no gardens didn't help)! They also stick up satellite dishes so large they overshadow their own windows!!
But this is minor, the problem was the sheer numbers with a constant roll of wheeled suitcases, meaning schools, GP surgery and hospitals were a mess. Small flats housed 8 people and houses split into bedsits by profit motivated landlords, with people constantly moving in and out it removed any family/community atmosphere. If you look at where all the politicians live, you will see the hypocrites themselves choose not to live next to mass immigration areas. A service designed for a 5000 can't just adapt to 20,000.
The number of migrants, eu and non-eu, made this area a less than ideal choice when having kids though and I wrote this post upon leaving. I now live in SW London My new area is also very multi-cultural, but it is settled with a steady turnover.
I was lucky enough to choose a move, there people all over the country who are stuck in communities where the sheer numbers have overwhelmed the services. Very happy to have migrants, but not an open door where we cannot plan anything or check their history.
heppers75 said:
Then the ones that I have experience of in more professional circles seem to be quite happy to live a lower standard of living in the UK than their income belies and send good portions of their earnings back home to families. However I fully admit that picture might not be played out on a macro level.
Standard practice for migrants, including British migrants abroad- I worked in Europe where there were many other (EU) foreigners in the company and English the standard language. Despite earning a decent experienced professional type salary, we shared flats in zone 2-3 and flew back to family every so often as opposed to weekly as the money is saved for the bills and saving to spend in future back in your country. A temp migrants priorities are different as your home is elsewhere.
heppers75 said:
So if there are 7.5 million non UK workers in the UK are there any statistics of credible source outside of either of our experience that tells us what sort of work they are doing?
Sort of work being done by EUA8 countries. 
‘EU14’ refers to: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the
Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden and Spain.
‘EUA8’ refers to: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia.
Note there are migrants who are doing work they are over qualified for, either as there qualifications are not recognised here, or that the job just happens to pay more than their normal occupation in Poland.
It is interesting as well that with certainly what seems like more exposure than I have had that some of the same things ring true, the professionals tend to remain so and the lower paid working / not working folks tend to be more disruptive, which I think we would all probably support in anecdotal terms at least.
The 65% of workers from the ex communist countries as well in low skilled work is another good indicator. I wonder what percentage of those jobs however are only available to those workers because our home grown Wayne and Waynettas would rather sit on their arses and collect state handouts than wash cars for £7 an hour?
Yazar said:
If America tomorrow opened their borders and offered 4 times the UK minimum salary to work in a factory, brits would be exactly the same and would flock over.
Could those flocks get a Green Card just like that?Is there some other mechamism to allow the above, on a diffrent basis, when many Americans are unemployed? Just asking.
heppers75 said:
crankedup said:
Nah, he isn't likely to agree with you or me any time soon, least I hope not otherwise this place would be as dull as ditch water. (www.I was brought up on a Council estate and dragged myself up to be a Director of six Companies.com).
We have been here before petal... I will ask again just for fun though as you never replied last time or the time before when you made the same false statement. However in for a penny - Please direct us all to the post or statement where I have said I am a director of six companies?
turbobloke said:
Could those flocks get a Green Card just like that?
Is there some other mechamism to allow the above, on a diffrent basis, when many Americans are unemployed? Just asking.
Nope, not currently. UK citizens are even banned from the green card lottery! Only Northern Irish allowed. http://blog.usa.gov/post/18023020035/can-a-uk-citi...Is there some other mechamism to allow the above, on a diffrent basis, when many Americans are unemployed? Just asking.
Not an expert but Inter-company transfers are easier, there are also various limited visas for skilled migrants entries but they go quick, Obama was in the news saying he is looking to remove the limit for Silicon Valley as its blocking their growth.
Actors don't seem to have an issue though, so there must be an easier route there, can you act?
ikarl said:
Yazar said:
ikarl said:
Yazar said:
b) understand the concept of percentages. For example there are 30 Million people in employment in the UK and only 2 million ish EU migrants + 5.5Million ish non-eu. So since 75% (22.5 Million) jobs are being done by UK citizens, Would you now agree that your labelling them as 'indigenous workshy morons' cannot be correct?
quick point - just because they are in work, does not mean they are working hard or to their full potential.Can you demonstrate that it is not a normal distribution curve?
JagLover said:
Scrapping the Human rights act is already Tory policy. In that context how is this undeliverable?
Good point, but having a policy is one thing, delivering on it (within the timescale of the government) is quite anotherWith respect, I think the facts are with me on this one.
Not sure why the laughing smiley is there, but each to their own!
What exactly is your point? because I may be missing it completely?!
The point I'm trying to make, and obviously not spelling it out in simple enough terms is; you remark that because there's a high volume of people in employment in the UK that the UK workforce is not work shy.
Just because there is a high volume of workers in the UK, that does not mean that the UK is working to it's full potential and, from personal experience, I have found immigrant workers are willing to work harder, longer and apply themselves more.
What exactly is your point? because I may be missing it completely?!
The point I'm trying to make, and obviously not spelling it out in simple enough terms is; you remark that because there's a high volume of people in employment in the UK that the UK workforce is not work shy.
Just because there is a high volume of workers in the UK, that does not mean that the UK is working to it's full potential and, from personal experience, I have found immigrant workers are willing to work harder, longer and apply themselves more.
ikarl said:
Not sure why the laughing smiley is there, but each to their own!
What exactly is your point? because I may be missing it completely?!
The point I'm trying to make, and obviously not spelling it out in simple enough terms is; you remark that because there's a high volume of people in employment in the UK that the UK workforce is not work shy.
Just because there is a high volume of workers in the UK that does not mean that the UK is working to it's full potential and, from personal experience, I have found immigrant workers are willing to work harder, longer and apply themselves more.
In your personal experience, why do you think workers from overseas do work harder, longer and apply themselves more?What exactly is your point? because I may be missing it completely?!
The point I'm trying to make, and obviously not spelling it out in simple enough terms is; you remark that because there's a high volume of people in employment in the UK that the UK workforce is not work shy.
Just because there is a high volume of workers in the UK that does not mean that the UK is working to it's full potential and, from personal experience, I have found immigrant workers are willing to work harder, longer and apply themselves more.
Some say they come over here because the pay is five times greater than their home Country.
Some say they enjoy 'in work benefits' and receive child allowances to send back to their home Country.
Some say they live in multi person rented rooms and are content with this as its still an improvement compared to their home Country.
Some say they send most of their wages back home, those wages equal a small fortune in annual terms.
Some say they are undercutting indigenous workers pay because they are accustomed to low pay and graft which for them is a short term ambition to start their own business in their home Country.
So who are the winners and losers in the great immigration debate so far as U.K. is concerned. The answer to that is easily seen in the rise of UKIP some may say.
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