The Banking Crisis......again !
Discussion
sidicks said:
Fastpedeller said:
So we are agreed that those responsible for losing it haven't been penalised in any way then?
I think we can certainly agree that you haven't got a f*cking clue what you are talking about.
What I meant to say was..... Those responsible for the ppi mis-selling haven't been penalised, it was a 'fine' to the bank and the shareholders 'paid the bill'
sidicks said:
crankedup said:
Over ambition on the part of bankers, public and Governments. Who benefited from it all before the crisis - bankers.
Seriously? You'd don't think that the whole of the economy benefitted from cheap credit pre-crisis?!
Governments who benefitted from increase GDP and tax income which then resulted in increased spending, benefiting the wider population.
Individuals who could borrow more money, more cheaply and acquire goods
Etc etc
crankedup said:
Retail banks will have a legislative duty in ensuring all loans fall within a set remit.
If a retail bank has to foreclose then they seize the asset the loan was granted against. Why would savers lose their savings?
Agree about a regulatory body that knows what they are doing 100% But to be fair many investment bankers bosses didn't understand what their traders were up to. Likely didn't much care either.
Which investment bank traders caused the problems?.If a retail bank has to foreclose then they seize the asset the loan was granted against. Why would savers lose their savings?
Agree about a regulatory body that knows what they are doing 100% But to be fair many investment bankers bosses didn't understand what their traders were up to. Likely didn't much care either.
Edited by sidicks on Friday 28th November 15:59
That would be the Fred 'the shred' type and his oinks.
sidicks said:
avinalarf said:
Some of the leadership were sacked,for many others it was business as usual at another institution.
I really think that some of you have not grasped what a feck up we have been left in.
I really think YOU have not grasped the cost of the bank bailouts.I really think that some of you have not grasped what a feck up we have been left in.
Please answer these questions:
1) what is the current amount of money owed by banks in respect of bank bailouts
2) what was the value of increases GDP & extra tax raised in the period prior to the credit crisis as a direct result of the government encourages / forced cheap credit economy?
avinalarf said:
Yes of course the government were at fault, but that does not absolve those at the head of the banks from their responsibilities.
You keep ignoring all the other people at fault, why is that?No one is saying the banks should be absolved from (partial) responsibility.
avinalarf said:
It was their greed and recklessness or sheer stupidity that lead to this debacle,it was one or other.
avinalarf said:
They knew that the banks were to big to fail and therefore took this "get out of jail free card " to feather their nests.
Which makes no sense, given how much of their bonuses are in shares and hence were decimated under the bailouts..avinalarf said:
Yes thousands of shop floor bank staff lost their jobs,they should not have ,they did not have the position to make those bad judgement calls,you don't see the likes of Fred Goodwin impoverished.
The banks were acting like a casino,only thing was heads we win,tails we win cos the suckers will have to foot the bill.
As explained the senior people were significantly impacted financially.The banks were acting like a casino,only thing was heads we win,tails we win cos the suckers will have to foot the bill.
avinalarf said:
The decisions I make in my business are built on experience and good practice AND there is nobody going to bail me out AND if I place fast and loose I'd be banged up.
If you committed a crime you'd be banged up - please understand the difference!avinalarf said:
These top bankers were paid huge salaries they had a responsibility to their Banks to act prudently,they shirked that responsibility for short term greed and personal gain.
Except this only partially stacks up, for reasons explained above.Edited by sidicks on Friday 28th November 20:24
Nothing the industry has achieved in rebuilding trust can be measured as such and until the slate is wiped clean its difficult to see any changes coming soon.
The only saving grace is the knowledge that no bank will ever be bailed out again with tax payers money.
otolith said:
avinalarf said:
.
Yes thousands of shop floor bank staff lost their jobs,they should not have ,they did not have the position to make those bad judgement calls,you don't see the likes of Fred Goodwin impoverished.
Entire trading desks got the boot.Yes thousands of shop floor bank staff lost their jobs,they should not have ,they did not have the position to make those bad judgement calls,you don't see the likes of Fred Goodwin impoverished.
crankedup said:
Glossing over the utter crassness of the finance industry only serves to confirm exactly why it is that the industry is considered, by a vast swathe of the population, to be despised. The continual outflow of scandal after scandal does nothing but reinforce peoples perceptions believing the industry has a very long climb back to anything like approaching a respectable and responsible industry.
Nothing the industry has achieved in rebuilding trust can be measured as such and until the slate is wiped clean its difficult to see any changes coming soon.
The only saving grace is the knowledge that no bank will ever be bailed out again with tax payers money.
agree with all of that except the last statement.Nothing the industry has achieved in rebuilding trust can be measured as such and until the slate is wiped clean its difficult to see any changes coming soon.
The only saving grace is the knowledge that no bank will ever be bailed out again with tax payers money.
I would say it was a hope, not a certainty, sadly.
crankedup said:
otolith said:
avinalarf said:
.
Yes thousands of shop floor bank staff lost their jobs,they should not have ,they did not have the position to make those bad judgement calls,you don't see the likes of Fred Goodwin impoverished.
Entire trading desks got the boot.Yes thousands of shop floor bank staff lost their jobs,they should not have ,they did not have the position to make those bad judgement calls,you don't see the likes of Fred Goodwin impoverished.
Where there is a culture of greed it infects all around it.
In any business the buck should stop at the top.
These top men were extremely well paid to do a job,they failed,big time.
This is not just a case of a few deals going sour,the whole kaboodle was rotten at the core.
Either it was known what was going on,in which case they were culpable or they didn't in which case they were stupid.
I know what's going on in my business and I'm professional enough to smell a rat.
If I choose to ignore the smell because I'm making money that doesn't make it right or me less culpable.
The bad practises of the financial industry are the unacceptable face of Capitalism.
It is poisonous and destructive and should not be defended.
I accept of course that there are many other bad practices in other industries however that's not this topic.
Edited by avinalarf on Saturday 29th November 21:39
hidetheelephants said:
We need an equivalent of the Glass-Steagall act, then the traders could do whatever it is they do, f
k up or not, fail, and the rest of us could more or less get on with life unaffected(pension fund exposure not withstanding). Glass Steagall gave the US 80 years of stable finance.
And the separation of investment banking and retail banking would have helped in the previous crisis how...??k up or not, fail, and the rest of us could more or less get on with life unaffected(pension fund exposure not withstanding). Glass Steagall gave the US 80 years of stable finance.avinalarf said:
How many of you read the article in yesterday's Evening Standard ( 27/11 )by Anthony Hilton ( City Comment).
To me it stated the blooming obvious that there must be a separation of the trading and banking divisions of our banks.
I know of no other business where reckless speculation is encouraged,profits banked,and when the ste hits the fan the losses become the responsibility of you and me. The bankers say "not me guv" and walk away.
What is driving the lack of ability of successive governments to bring in adequate regulation and put an end to this nonsense ?
The problem with this is that it is bTo me it stated the blooming obvious that there must be a separation of the trading and banking divisions of our banks.
I know of no other business where reckless speculation is encouraged,profits banked,and when the s
te hits the fan the losses become the responsibility of you and me. The bankers say "not me guv" and walk away.What is driving the lack of ability of successive governments to bring in adequate regulation and put an end to this nonsense ?
ks:Northern Rock had no investment banking division;
Neither did Bradford & Bingley;
RBS was brought down by its acquisition of ABN AMRO, not its (mediocre at best) investment banking division;
Lloyds was brought low by the deal agreed between Victor Blank and Gordon Brown to buy HBOS. It had no investment banking division;
Lehman Brotheds was a pure investment bank;
Merrill Lynch was a pure investment bank, rescued by Bano of America;
Goldman Sachs was a pure investment bank, rescued (although they have forgotten it) by Warren Buffett.
The financial crisis had nothing whatsoever to do with combining investment and retail banking in the same institutions.
Banking crisis?
Let's start wth customer service...
My late wife had a mortgage with "the Halifax" (latterly HBOS) and a homeowner loan with RBOS (latterly also HBOS).
She was also rather over-insured
, which covered these debts - if only one could make an appointment at "the Halifax" to discuss them once she'd passed away!! 
The homeowner loan has been paid off by a life assurance policy - though I have only been told this verbally and have no evidence of this in writing 2 months after being told this by Halifax staff
.
The mortgage was paid off by me (once I'd received Grant of Administration and paid a cheque in) very early last month, and I have a hand-written receipt but no formal letter telling me it's been paid off (I was told I'd hear from then "with the deeds" a month or so later, I've heard nowt). Prior to this I recieved a most snotty letter addressed to "PERS REP of the late xxx xxx" (even though they knew who I am
) asking what my plans are for the property - which isn't really satisfactory... 
"6 months' grace" following a bereavement - that's a 6 months' payment holiday with interest still being charged while probate is sought? - would be sacrosanct, I'd expect ... Clearly not for this 
in Leeds!
Back when my wife had passed on (in June), it took me 5 attempts over 5 days to get an appointment to tell HBOS that my wife had passed away - it was a litany of failures of people to get back to me for 4 days... I managed to speak to someone sensible on Day Five who arranged an appointment at a branch in the next town rather than in my own town!
Then, on Day Six, I got a phone call from someone at the local branch replying to my message on Day Three offering me an appointment to meet someone to discuss my wife's passing - just as I was leaving the Chapel of Rest having visited my late wife! Not Good At All ...
A strong complaint is being written.
Meanwhile, my late wife also held her bank account with a bank within a different strand of mainstream banking; yes, they froze her account within minutes of me advising them of her passing (as is usual in these circumstances
) - but they also (as is usual in these circumstances ) paid both the deposit for her funeral and the final balance within 24 hours of their receipt of the estimate then the final invoice . Their customer service was beyond reproach (especially as I managed to arrange a convenient appointment at the branch I wanted within the 2 minutes that was the first phone call, and the "difficult" visit explaining all was made very easy with their care shown to me), I really cannot fault them... Unfortunately, my wife seldom felt able to say the same about them 
.
The only reason I didn't continue with that account in my name is that they needed bailouts some years ago (as did almost every other bugger
), whereas my own bank (the so-called "Netto of UK banking") did NOT... And I've complained enough about these jokers in the past - yup, banks in the UK really are generally bad in terms of customer service!
Customer service is all, banking crisis or not... If people voted with their feet, there'd be a REAL banking crisis !
Bringing it down a level, UK banking on the high street is a cosmic (expletive-deleted) shambles in terms of customer service, and the Banks' contempt for us is generally greater than our contempt for them.
Just as with MPs??
Let's start wth customer service...
My late wife had a mortgage with "the Halifax" (latterly HBOS) and a homeowner loan with RBOS (latterly also HBOS).
She was also rather over-insured
, which covered these debts - if only one could make an appointment at "the Halifax" to discuss them once she'd passed away!! The homeowner loan has been paid off by a life assurance policy - though I have only been told this verbally and have no evidence of this in writing 2 months after being told this by Halifax staff
.The mortgage was paid off by me (once I'd received Grant of Administration and paid a cheque in) very early last month, and I have a hand-written receipt but no formal letter telling me it's been paid off (I was told I'd hear from then "with the deeds" a month or so later, I've heard nowt). Prior to this I recieved a most snotty letter addressed to "PERS REP of the late xxx xxx" (even though they knew who I am
) asking what my plans are for the property - which isn't really satisfactory... "6 months' grace" following a bereavement - that's a 6 months' payment holiday with interest still being charged while probate is sought? - would be sacrosanct, I'd expect
... Clearly not for this in Leeds! Back when my wife had passed on (in June), it took me 5 attempts over 5 days to get an appointment to tell HBOS that my wife had passed away - it was a litany of failures of people to get back to me for 4 days... I managed to speak to someone sensible on Day Five who arranged an appointment at a branch in the next town rather than in my own town!
Then, on Day Six, I got a phone call from someone at the local branch replying to my message on Day Three offering me an appointment to meet someone to discuss my wife's passing - just as I was leaving the Chapel of Rest having visited my late wife! Not Good At All
...A strong complaint is being written.
Meanwhile, my late wife also held her bank account with a bank within a different strand of mainstream banking; yes, they froze her account within minutes of me advising them of her passing (as is usual in these circumstances
) - but they also (as is usual in these circumstances ) paid both the deposit for her funeral and the final balance within 24 hours of their receipt of the estimate then the final invoice . Their customer service was beyond reproach (especially as I managed to arrange a convenient appointment at the branch I wanted within the 2 minutes that was the first phone call, and the "difficult" visit explaining all was made very easy with their care shown to me), I really cannot fault them... Unfortunately, my wife seldom felt able to say the same about them .The only reason I didn't continue with that account in my name is that they needed bailouts some years ago (as did almost every other bugger
), whereas my own bank (the so-called "Netto of UK banking") did NOT... And I've complained enough about these jokers in the past - yup, banks in the UK really are generally bad in terms of customer service!Customer service is all, banking crisis or not... If people voted with their feet, there'd be a REAL banking crisis
!Bringing it down a level, UK banking on the high street is a cosmic (expletive-deleted) shambles in terms of customer service, and the Banks' contempt for us is generally greater than our contempt for them.
Just as with MPs??
aw51 121565 said:
Banking crisis?
Let's start wth customer service...
My late wife had a mortgage with "the Halifax" (latterly HBOS) and a homeowner loan with RBOS (latterly also HBOS).
She was also rather over-insured, which covered these debts - if only one could make an appointment at "the Halifax" to discuss them once she'd passed away!!
The homeowner loan has been paid off by a life assurance policy - though I have only been told this verbally and have no evidence of this in writing 2 months after being told this by Halifax staff .
The mortgage was paid off by me (once I'd received Grant of Administration and paid a cheque in) very early last month, and I have a hand-written receipt but no formal letter telling me it's been paid off (I was told I'd hear from then "with the deeds" a month or so later, I've heard nowt). Prior to this I recieved a most snotty letter addressed to "PERS REP of the late xxx xxx" (even though they knew who I am ) asking what my plans are for the property - which isn't really satisfactory...
"6 months' grace" following a bereavement - that's a 6 months' payment holiday with interest still being charged while probate is sought? - would be sacrosanct, I'd expect ... Clearly not for this in Leeds!
Back when my wife had passed on (in June), it took me 5 attempts over 5 days to get an appointment to tell HBOS that my wife had passed away - it was a litany of failures of people to get back to me for 4 days... I managed to speak to someone sensible on Day Five who arranged an appointment at a branch in the next town rather than in my own town!
Then, on Day Six, I got a phone call from someone at the local branch replying to my message on Day Three offering me an appointment to meet someone to discuss my wife's passing - just as I was leaving the Chapel of Rest having visited my late wife! Not Good At All ...
A strong complaint is being written.
Meanwhile, my late wife also held her bank account with a bank within a different strand of mainstream banking; yes, they froze her account within minutes of me advising them of her passing (as is usual in these circumstances ) - but they also (as is usual in these circumstances ) paid both the deposit for her funeral and the final balance within 24 hours of their receipt of the estimate then the final invoice . Their customer service was beyond reproach (especially as I managed to arrange a convenient appointment at the branch I wanted within the 2 minutes that was the first phone call, and the "difficult" visit explaining all was made very easy with their care shown to me), I really cannot fault them... Unfortunately, my wife seldom felt able to say the same about them .
The only reason I didn't continue with that account in my name is that they needed bailouts some years ago (as did almost every other bugger ), whereas my own bank (the so-called "Netto of UK banking") did NOT... And I've complained enough about these jokers in the past - yup, banks in the UK really are generally bad in terms of customer service!
Customer service is all, banking crisis or not... If people voted with their feet, there'd be a REAL banking crisis !
Bringing it down a level, UK banking on the high street is a cosmic (expletive-deleted) shambles in terms of customer service, and the Banks' contempt for us is generally greater than our contempt for them.
Just as with MPs??
Let's start wth customer service...
My late wife had a mortgage with "the Halifax" (latterly HBOS) and a homeowner loan with RBOS (latterly also HBOS).
She was also rather over-insured
, which covered these debts - if only one could make an appointment at "the Halifax" to discuss them once she'd passed away!! The homeowner loan has been paid off by a life assurance policy - though I have only been told this verbally and have no evidence of this in writing 2 months after being told this by Halifax staff
.The mortgage was paid off by me (once I'd received Grant of Administration and paid a cheque in) very early last month, and I have a hand-written receipt but no formal letter telling me it's been paid off (I was told I'd hear from then "with the deeds" a month or so later, I've heard nowt). Prior to this I recieved a most snotty letter addressed to "PERS REP of the late xxx xxx" (even though they knew who I am
) asking what my plans are for the property - which isn't really satisfactory... "6 months' grace" following a bereavement - that's a 6 months' payment holiday with interest still being charged while probate is sought? - would be sacrosanct, I'd expect
... Clearly not for this in Leeds! Back when my wife had passed on (in June), it took me 5 attempts over 5 days to get an appointment to tell HBOS that my wife had passed away - it was a litany of failures of people to get back to me for 4 days... I managed to speak to someone sensible on Day Five who arranged an appointment at a branch in the next town rather than in my own town!
Then, on Day Six, I got a phone call from someone at the local branch replying to my message on Day Three offering me an appointment to meet someone to discuss my wife's passing - just as I was leaving the Chapel of Rest having visited my late wife! Not Good At All
...A strong complaint is being written.
Meanwhile, my late wife also held her bank account with a bank within a different strand of mainstream banking; yes, they froze her account within minutes of me advising them of her passing (as is usual in these circumstances
) - but they also (as is usual in these circumstances ) paid both the deposit for her funeral and the final balance within 24 hours of their receipt of the estimate then the final invoice . Their customer service was beyond reproach (especially as I managed to arrange a convenient appointment at the branch I wanted within the 2 minutes that was the first phone call, and the "difficult" visit explaining all was made very easy with their care shown to me), I really cannot fault them... Unfortunately, my wife seldom felt able to say the same about them .The only reason I didn't continue with that account in my name is that they needed bailouts some years ago (as did almost every other bugger
), whereas my own bank (the so-called "Netto of UK banking") did NOT... And I've complained enough about these jokers in the past - yup, banks in the UK really are generally bad in terms of customer service!Customer service is all, banking crisis or not... If people voted with their feet, there'd be a REAL banking crisis
!Bringing it down a level, UK banking on the high street is a cosmic (expletive-deleted) shambles in terms of customer service, and the Banks' contempt for us is generally greater than our contempt for them.
Just as with MPs??
Zod said:
avinalarf said:
How many of you read the article in yesterday's Evening Standard ( 27/11 )by Anthony Hilton ( City Comment).
To me it stated the blooming obvious that there must be a separation of the trading and banking divisions of our banks.
I know of no other business where reckless speculation is encouraged,profits banked,and when the ste hits the fan the losses become the responsibility of you and me. The bankers say "not me guv" and walk away.
What is driving the lack of ability of successive governments to bring in adequate regulation and put an end to this nonsense ?
The problem with this is that it is bTo me it stated the blooming obvious that there must be a separation of the trading and banking divisions of our banks.
I know of no other business where reckless speculation is encouraged,profits banked,and when the s
te hits the fan the losses become the responsibility of you and me. The bankers say "not me guv" and walk away.What is driving the lack of ability of successive governments to bring in adequate regulation and put an end to this nonsense ?
ks:Northern Rock had no investment banking division;
Neither did Bradford & Bingley;
RBS was brought down by its acquisition of ABN AMRO, not its (mediocre at best) investment banking division;
Lloyds was brought low by the deal agreed between Victor Blank and Gordon Brown to buy HBOS. It had no investment banking division;
Lehman Brotheds was a pure investment bank;
Merrill Lynch was a pure investment bank, rescued by Bano of America;
Goldman Sachs was a pure investment bank, rescued (although they have forgotten it) by Warren Buffett.
The financial crisis had nothing whatsoever to do with combining investment and retail banking in the same institutions.
the reason there 'must be a separation of the trading and banking divisions of our banks'
is NOT because combining them, in itself brings a problem (apart from cross leakage of the culture and unjust rewards, perhaps)
BUT because if they are separate, the government can let the investment bank fail without affecting retail, or so the theory goes. Likely though, the greedy and stupid retail bankers will have 'invested' in the same s
tstorm as bringing down the investment banks.The roots of the crisis can be found in Big Bang. Up until then, the industry was run by well qualified, generally risk averse individuals and organisations stuck to what they did best. Generally speaking, Building Societies looked after savings and provided mortgages, insurance companies provided insurance policies and banks were where you kept money you weren't going to save and used for transactions. Other people, like solicitors and accountants had clearly defined roles in all this and people didn't tread on each other's toes. If you looked at the heads of financial organisations they were all Fellows of one professional body or other, had been in the industry for decades and had passed numerous professional exams along the way. Products were simple, easy to explain and understand and everyone knew where to find them.
Pretty much from Big Bang onwards, the above disintegrated, most notably exemplified in organisations moving into businesses they didn't understand (take Building Societies and Banks buying Estate Agent chains), products became much more complicated, technology befuddled the bosses, governance and supervision went out of the window (Barings) and anyone who could be seen to make money got the keys to the sweet shop. Customers were lied to or deliberately deceived (Endowment Mortgages) and miss-selling became endemic. Qualifications didn't matter any more. You were good at selling cars? Come and run a bank. Directors (old and new) didn't understand what was going on under their watch and governments turned a blind eye because the tax revenues were huge. Eventually of course, the music stopped and a lot of people found they were holding an unexploded bomb.
It's pretty easy to understand how we've arrived at this point and it will take decades to resolve it. I do have a lot of time for Carney though and I think he has made a very good start - an example of someone who isn't an old industry fart but is not a disciple of excess either.
Pretty much from Big Bang onwards, the above disintegrated, most notably exemplified in organisations moving into businesses they didn't understand (take Building Societies and Banks buying Estate Agent chains), products became much more complicated, technology befuddled the bosses, governance and supervision went out of the window (Barings) and anyone who could be seen to make money got the keys to the sweet shop. Customers were lied to or deliberately deceived (Endowment Mortgages) and miss-selling became endemic. Qualifications didn't matter any more. You were good at selling cars? Come and run a bank. Directors (old and new) didn't understand what was going on under their watch and governments turned a blind eye because the tax revenues were huge. Eventually of course, the music stopped and a lot of people found they were holding an unexploded bomb.
It's pretty easy to understand how we've arrived at this point and it will take decades to resolve it. I do have a lot of time for Carney though and I think he has made a very good start - an example of someone who isn't an old industry fart but is not a disciple of excess either.
Edited by 9mm on Sunday 30th November 12:36
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