CIA lied over brutal interrogations
Discussion
XJ Flyer said:
In general it really is impossible to believe that anyone would attract the attentions of groups like the CIA and NSA,thereby ending up somewhere like Guantanamo,without those agencies having something a 'bit' ( lot ) more credible against them than just their colour.
Ever hear tell of a guy called de Menezes who came to the attention of MI5?Rovinghawk said:
XJ Flyer said:
In general it really is impossible to believe that anyone would attract the attentions of groups like the CIA and NSA,thereby ending up somewhere like Guantanamo,without those agencies having something a 'bit' ( lot ) more credible against them than just their colour.
Ever hear tell of a guy called de Menezes who came to the attention of MI5?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_vict...
If that was one of my relatives I'd be chopping off heads with a pen-knife too. What's more my actions would be no better or worse from a moral perspective than those of the Western powers.
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 14th December 17:40
Rovinghawk said:
Ever hear tell of a guy called de Menezes who came to the attention of MI5?
no one should be flip about this, it was a dreadful time and mistakes were made but we were under attack, make no mistake:from Wki:
On 22 July 2005, The Metropolitan Police were searching for four suspects in four attempted bombings carried out the previous day; three at Underground stations and one on a bus in Hackney. As the perpetrators had not died in the failed suicide bombing, a large police investigation and manhunt began immediately. An address in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, was written on a gym membership card that was found inside one of the unexploded bags used by the bombers.
Menezes, an electrician, lived in one of the flats with two of his cousins, and had just received a call to fix a broken fire alarm in Kilburn. At around 9:30am, officers carrying out surveillance saw Menezes emerge from the communal entrance of the block. The officers were watching three men who they believed may have been Somali, Eritrean, or Ethiopian.[citation needed]
An officer on duty at Scotia Road, referred to as 'Frank' in the Stockwell One report, compared the suspect, Menezes, to the CCTV photographs of the bombing suspects from the previous day, and felt he warranted further attention. As the officer was allegedly urinating, he was unable to immediately film the suspect to transmit images to Gold Command, the Metropolitan Police ("Met") operational headquarters for major incidents. It was reported at the time[6] that "Frank" was an undercover soldier. The inquest transcript confirms that he was a soldier on secondment to the surveillance unit.
On the basis of Frank's suspicion, Gold Command authorised officers to continue pursuit and surveillance, and ordered that the suspect was to be prevented from entering the Tube system.
Documents from the independent agency investigation of the shooting later concluded that mistakes in police surveillance procedure led to a failure to properly identify Menezes early on, leading to rushed assumptions and actions later at Stockwell Tube station.
EskimoArapaho said:
9mm said:
Finally, physical torture can be useful. I'd start by stating that it might well be unnecessary and counter productive but sometimes it will be more effective than drugs, persuasion, blackmail, etc. Two main reasons. The first is that anyone can be broken - it's just a question of finding the key. For some, that will be pain, for others sleep deprivation or threats to their family. Immediate recourse to physical torture would illustrate the amateur status of the interrogator. Secondly, and in particular response to those that say a tortured person will tell you what you want to hear, that's often true. However, sometimes you may a) have strong grounds for believing they have the information you want and b) have limited time to check every possibilty.
It would be a lot simpler if you wrote: "The ends jutifies the means."Quote:
While parts of the programme had been known – and much more will never be revealed – the catalogue of abuse is nightmarish and reads like something invented by the Marquis de Sade or Hieronymous Bosch.
Detainees were forced to stand on broken limbs for hours, kept in complete darkness, deprived of sleep for up to 180 hours, sometimes standing, sometimes with their arms shackled above their heads.
Prisoners were subjected to “rectal feeding” without medical necessity. Rectal exams were conducted with “excessive force”. The report highlights one prisoner later diagnosed with anal fissures, chronic hemorrhoids and “symptomatic rectal prolapse”.
The report mentions mock executions, Russian roulette. US agents threatened to slit the throat of a detainee’s mother, sexually abuse another and threatened prisoners’ children. One prisoner died of hypothermia brought on in part by being forced to sit on a bare concrete floor without pants.
So, tortured to death. Thats somebodys son, husband or even father.
And we wonder why they behead our people.
Given a choice I think I'd prefer to be beheaded.
While parts of the programme had been known – and much more will never be revealed – the catalogue of abuse is nightmarish and reads like something invented by the Marquis de Sade or Hieronymous Bosch.
Detainees were forced to stand on broken limbs for hours, kept in complete darkness, deprived of sleep for up to 180 hours, sometimes standing, sometimes with their arms shackled above their heads.
Prisoners were subjected to “rectal feeding” without medical necessity. Rectal exams were conducted with “excessive force”. The report highlights one prisoner later diagnosed with anal fissures, chronic hemorrhoids and “symptomatic rectal prolapse”.
The report mentions mock executions, Russian roulette. US agents threatened to slit the throat of a detainee’s mother, sexually abuse another and threatened prisoners’ children. One prisoner died of hypothermia brought on in part by being forced to sit on a bare concrete floor without pants.
So, tortured to death. Thats somebodys son, husband or even father.
And we wonder why they behead our people.
Given a choice I think I'd prefer to be beheaded.
Gaz. said:
9mm said:
That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that it's as incorrect to say that torture works, as to say it doesn't work. It's not a binary argument. I have made no comment regarding the morality of its usage.
That KSM had to be water boarded 180 times tells me that it isn't that useful. There's been a few volunteers who have tried it and regretted the idea almost instantly so really how strong was KSM's resolve that it took 180 sessions to rinse the truth out of him?Even the CIA's own figures put 1 in five down as wrongfully detained by their standards.
I'm on the electric fence about info gained via tortue, I'm sure it could be useful to a degree, but what the CIA got up to was torture for the sake of it/enjoyment & gratification. What on earth could be gained from locking a man up in a 2ft cube for 12 days while he wimpered and pleaded for his life?
Gaz. said:
Even the CIA's own figures put 1 in five down as wrongfully detained by their standards.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-wrong-place-timeTaking into account friends, family and acquaintances that's an awful lot of people who are going to feel justified in doing whatever needs to be done to get even and when they do they'll be no worse than those who are supposed to be the good guys.
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 14th December 19:03
Although, this 9/11 issue and Osama could've been solved if someone in the CIA had actually bothered to pick up the 'phone and call the Pakistani President at the the time. A possible transcript of that call....
(CIA)
hello mate, we need a bit of help. Can't find the bugger and it's becoming tedious at Guantanamo-stinking hot here and the ice machine is fooked. So, this Osama guy, have you heard anything?
(PP)
Nah mate, last we seen, he's in the hills upside the Ghan.
(CIA)
Thing is, we're about torture another bunch of guys and another cheeky bit of extraordinary rendition and holding prisoners without charge- Obama has said release them, even the Supreme Court has said we have no grounds to hold them. So it's getting a bit sticky here. Any thoughs?
(PP)
No worries mate. I know that you've supported us with millions in aid and we are 'great friends' but haven't a clue where he is,
(Voices in backround faint but sound like 'tell CIA to fook off)
(CIA)
Thanks, i know you're telling me the truth but would you mind having a look?
(PP)
No worries. He's not here but I'll have a gander....
(Sound of reciever being put down, crunching across gravel and knocking on next door neighbours house)
(PP) sorry Osama but you haven't paid the gass bill for 3 years. Needs paying mate, otherwise I've the CIA on the 'phone.
(OBL) but you said you would protect me against the infidel?
(PP) yeah i know. But no gas bill, no protection
(OBL) but the giro doesn't arrive 'til Tuesday?
(PP) sorry mate, not much I can do. How's the wives by the way?
(Sound of slamming door, crunching of gravel and a reciever being picked up.
(PP)
Hello mate, wouldn't you believe it but he's here! Well I never, being living next door all the time! We never had a clue, honest Guvnor.
(CIA)
Wow, that's incredible. Whats the address there?
(PP)
I can't remember. But give me a few days.
(Sound of voices in the background)
If we give the CIA his address, we'll never get the gas bill paid. Ah f
k it.
(PP)
Found it, i'll text you.
(CIA)
thanks mate. BTW, do you need any more money?
(PP)
Yeah, thanks. See you later!
(Telephone put down but voices and laughter heard in the background)
We fked America? Yes! (Sound of laughter)
(CIA)
hello mate, we need a bit of help. Can't find the bugger and it's becoming tedious at Guantanamo-stinking hot here and the ice machine is fooked. So, this Osama guy, have you heard anything?
(PP)
Nah mate, last we seen, he's in the hills upside the Ghan.
(CIA)
Thing is, we're about torture another bunch of guys and another cheeky bit of extraordinary rendition and holding prisoners without charge- Obama has said release them, even the Supreme Court has said we have no grounds to hold them. So it's getting a bit sticky here. Any thoughs?
(PP)
No worries mate. I know that you've supported us with millions in aid and we are 'great friends' but haven't a clue where he is,
(Voices in backround faint but sound like 'tell CIA to fook off)
(CIA)
Thanks, i know you're telling me the truth but would you mind having a look?
(PP)
No worries. He's not here but I'll have a gander....
(Sound of reciever being put down, crunching across gravel and knocking on next door neighbours house)
(PP) sorry Osama but you haven't paid the gass bill for 3 years. Needs paying mate, otherwise I've the CIA on the 'phone.
(OBL) but you said you would protect me against the infidel?
(PP) yeah i know. But no gas bill, no protection
(OBL) but the giro doesn't arrive 'til Tuesday?
(PP) sorry mate, not much I can do. How's the wives by the way?
(Sound of slamming door, crunching of gravel and a reciever being picked up.
(PP)
Hello mate, wouldn't you believe it but he's here! Well I never, being living next door all the time! We never had a clue, honest Guvnor.
(CIA)
Wow, that's incredible. Whats the address there?
(PP)
I can't remember. But give me a few days.
(Sound of voices in the background)
If we give the CIA his address, we'll never get the gas bill paid. Ah f
k it.(PP)
Found it, i'll text you.
(CIA)
thanks mate. BTW, do you need any more money?
(PP)
Yeah, thanks. See you later!
(Telephone put down but voices and laughter heard in the background)
We f
ked America? Yes! (Sound of laughter)Gaz. said:
9mm said:
That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that it's as incorrect to say that torture works, as to say it doesn't work. It's not a binary argument. I have made no comment regarding the morality of its usage.
That KSM had to be water boarded 180 times tells me that it isn't that useful. There's been a few volunteers who have tried it and regretted the idea almost instantly so really how strong was KSM's resolve that it took 180 sessions to rinse the truth out of him?Even the CIA's own figures put 1 in five down as wrongfully detained by their standards.
I'm on the electric fence about info gained via tortue, I'm sure it could be useful to a degree, but what the CIA got up to was torture for the sake of it/enjoyment & gratification. What on earth could be gained from locking a man up in a 2ft cube for 12 days while he wimpered and pleaded for his life?
Planning and organising the 9/11 attacks
Organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing,
The Bali nightclub bombings,
Planning Richard Reid's attempted shoe bombing,
Planning attacks on Heathrow Airport and Big Ben clock tower in London,
Daniel Pearl's murder in 2002, personally cutting off his head
Planned assassination attempts on Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Bill Clinton.
If he did only 10% of what he admitted to I have zero sympathy.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Gaz. said:
9mm said:
Even the CIA's own figures put 1 in five down as wrongfully detained by their standards.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-wrong-place-timeTaking into account friends, family and acquaintances that's an awful lot of people who are going to feel justified in doing whatever needs to be done to get even and when they do they'll be no worse than those who are supposed to be the good guys.
Please edit or remove your post in the interests of accuracy.
Ayahuasca said:
KSM apparently confessed to:
Planning and organising the 9/11 attacks
Organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing,
The Bali nightclub bombings,
Planning Richard Reid's attempted shoe bombing,
Planning attacks on Heathrow Airport and Big Ben clock tower in London,
Daniel Pearl's murder in 2002, personally cutting off his head
Planned assassination attempts on Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Bill Clinton.
If he did only 10% of what he admitted to I have zero sympathy.
Musharraf has a lot to answer for.......Planning and organising the 9/11 attacks
Organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing,
The Bali nightclub bombings,
Planning Richard Reid's attempted shoe bombing,
Planning attacks on Heathrow Airport and Big Ben clock tower in London,
Daniel Pearl's murder in 2002, personally cutting off his head
Planned assassination attempts on Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Bill Clinton.
If he did only 10% of what he admitted to I have zero sympathy.
9mm said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Gaz. said:
9mm said:
Even the CIA's own figures put 1 in five down as wrongfully detained by their standards.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-wrong-place-timeTaking into account friends, family and acquaintances that's an awful lot of people who are going to feel justified in doing whatever needs to be done to get even and when they do they'll be no worse than those who are supposed to be the good guys.
Please edit or remove your post in the interests of accuracy.
ker. Don't worry too much have quoted facts that can be backed up with external references there rather tthan opinion so not such an issue. Again sorry and again I'll sort it ASAPel stovey said:
XJ Flyer said:
There is only one answer and it is never going to be the politically correct one that the do gooders would like.In which case we can only hope that those enforcing the law know what they are doing by applying what needs to be done selectively,proportionally and to the right people.
The facts are though that the wrong people have been detained and tortured or bombed. If like me, you probably try to rationalise it to yourself by thinking, there's no smoke without fire or they looked like terrorists or what were they doing at a wedding with someone on a kill list. You try to imaging that your side are the good guys and the other are definitely the bad guys. If you stand back though, and look at it, it's clear that the USA and UK are often no better than the terrorists in how they have conducted themselves.
Does that matter? Each to their own but even if you don't care about torturing people and bombing weddings, the end result is that more terrorists are being created. It's not even an effective way of stopping terrorism.
d to those who we have to fight than they are to us.It goes with the territory of what/who we are in being just very clever intelligent apes who fight just as the ape world has to.It is then just a matter of sides because unfortunately nature doesn't give us the option of being neutral in all cases.www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQcKiFy_DM
XJ Flyer said:
I think the same logic could have been used in the case of the bombing offensive against Germany in WW2.IE yes it made us as bad as them and probably actually increased the moral of their anti aircraft and fighter operations.However when push comes to shove at the end of the day winning is all about being a more vicious bd to those who we have to fight than they are to us.It goes with the territory of what/who we are in being just very clever intelligent apes who fight just as the ape world has to.It is then just a matter of sides because unfortunately nature doesn't give us the option of being neutral in all cases.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQcKiFy_DM
Weird day for agreeing with posters.d to those who we have to fight than they are to us.It goes with the territory of what/who we are in being just very clever intelligent apes who fight just as the ape world has to.It is then just a matter of sides because unfortunately nature doesn't give us the option of being neutral in all cases.www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQcKiFy_DM
el stovey said:
If you stand back though, and look at it, it's clear that the USA and UK are often no better than the terrorists in how they have conducted themselves.
Actually they're likely worse.They (the fanatics) haven't signed up to any treaties or organisations that ban this kind of behaviour only to disregard them when it suits. They don't appear to scream "foul" anywhere as near as loudly when an atrocity is perpetrated on them as we do when one claims one of our lives. With them WYSIWYG with us its "do as we say, not as we do".
XJ Flyer said:
However when push comes to shove at the end of the day winning is all about being a more vicious bd to those who we have to fight than they are to us.
Trouble is, the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of people who have died as a result of our actions in the "war against terror" or its aftermath weren't even in the fight in the first place. d to those who we have to fight than they are to us.KareemK said:
Actually they're likely worse.
They (the fanatics) haven't signed up to any treaties or organisations that ban this kind of behaviour only to disregard them when it suits. They don't appear to scream "foul" anywhere as near as loudly when an atrocity is perpetrated on them as we do when one claims one of our lives. With them WYSIWYG with us its "do as we say, not as we do".
In general 'our side' has only resorted to going outside its own rules on a reactive basis not a pro active one and even then we don't generally summarily behead hostages to make our point.Which at least shows that it is 'our side' rather than 'the opposition' that is leading some advance in human civilisation over medieval times.They (the fanatics) haven't signed up to any treaties or organisations that ban this kind of behaviour only to disregard them when it suits. They don't appear to scream "foul" anywhere as near as loudly when an atrocity is perpetrated on them as we do when one claims one of our lives. With them WYSIWYG with us its "do as we say, not as we do".
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