Who is most hated - Thatcher or Blair

[crankedup]

Kermit power said:

crankedup said:

legzr1 said:

Isn't this the 'race to the bottom' that people have been warning of since the coalition took power?

Minimum wage earners having to defend their right to withdraw labour whilst the top 5% of earners moan that their tax is paying for their over-generous pensions.

It's as corrupt as the worst of the bankers excesses.

This is only of interest to those caught in the net of 'race to the bottom'. For those currently fortunate enough to escape the net these people do not recognise a problem. Its the usual short term selfish attitudes often expressed by the unaffected, dressed over with excuses such as 'global competition'.

How on earth is it "dressed over with excuses such as global competition"???

What else do you think it is?

Look around your home. How many of the electrical goods were made in the UK? How much of the clothing?

Of course, all of those items could have been made here with workers paid £7 per hour instead of £7 per day, but if they had, would you have been willing to pay £1,200 instead of £400 (or however much it cost) for your TV?

Assuming for a minute that you personally would have been prepared to pay the extra price of manufacturing goods here rather than in a globally competitive market, how much more would your employer need to pay you to make sure that you could maintain a sustainable existence, given your new magnanimity towards your fellow workers?

The sad fact is that unless people in this country are prepared to pay more for goods manufactured in this country (and they're not), then there is absolutely no way of avoiding global competition.

I know about that stuff, its why we have a race to the bottom, its why the Governments have been so keen to stay in the E.U. This is a God send to the U.K. with low cost employees flooding into the U.K. and eagerly snapped up by manufacturers. The question has to be asked, where is the bottom that the U.K. is involved with?

One fact that is now appearing is that those wishing to purchase high quality are now prepared to pay a premium price for. U.k. Companies are now beginning to move back to a U.K. manufacturing base away from the Pacific Basin region. Simply answer is that wage increases in the P.B. are inflating, this alongside shipping of goods expense has narrowed the margins to the point of equality with the U.K. for those repatriating Companies. The tipping point is the lack of high quality skilled workers that are able to turn out product to sustained high levels of quality required.

Trying to compete upon price is never going to put the U.K. back toward the top tier of manufacturing. Thankfully high quality precision engineering can.

As for my personal 'support British manufacturing' purchases. To a limited extent I do buy British, such is what is left of it. L.G. NAD and Cambridge are three larger purchases that I sincerely hope remain British. In truth I cannot fathom why I give a 5hit, I have done OK and now semi-retired. My family are all all right jack. So its just an ingrained belief that I am lumbered with 'fair play for all' crap.
In reality those service industry jobs, service and cleaning is likely to remain at base level.

What pees me off is the ever widening wealth gap taking us back to Victorian days.

[crankedup]

ukwill said:

crankedup said:

SIDICKS believes the banking crisis was only caused by a few naughty people employed within the industry

For somebody who preaches 'show us your evidence' your own evidence to support your assertions seems somewhat thin!

In the UK, the Financial Industry employs just over 1m people. Out of interest, what % would you say are complicit in causing the financial crisis?

Its not the % of people that is important though is it! Its the cretins that wielded power and instructed the workers. Having said that how many workers benefited from the wrong doing and corrupt dealings, directly and indirectly.

[Walford]

Golden Brown

[Rovinghawk]

crankedup said:

It must always be remembered Thatchers great meddling resulting in de-regulation in the City

Actually it was Gordon Brown. He even apologised for it.

I've picked a fairly left-wing source for the proof as it seemed more likely to convince you:

http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/285/go...

[Don]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

It must always be remembered Thatchers great meddling resulting in de-regulation in the City

Actually it was Gordon Brown. He even apologised for it.

I've picked a fairly left-wing source for the proof as it seemed more likely to convince you:

http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/285/go...

This was GB's great fk up. The start of the (recent) economic trouble in the UK leading to the mid-2000s economic crisis. Not all that one thing, of course, but a contributor.

[Dr Jekyll]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

It must always be remembered Thatchers great meddling resulting in de-regulation in the City

Actually it was Gordon Brown. He even apologised for it.

I've picked a fairly left-wing source for the proof as it seemed more likely to convince you:

http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/285/go...

Also remember that it was Thatcher's government that banned insider trading, Labour never bothered.

[jmorgan]

Not exactly the thing to create the hatred though, not from most quarters. I think the wannabe dictators (the average on the street far lefty) think they were denied the crack at power by her.

[sidicks]

crankedup said:

Indeed, unfortunately those investors were the financial pro's in the main, inter bank trading. Due diligence my arse, they for the most part were so over excited and arrogant they lost sight of all that stuff, but you know that. They assumed that they could dump the crap and hold the quality, fine but it all went wrong.

Yes I thought all the fiddles and downright criminality was well published, well it is and you know that. Stop being obtuse for a change.

Once agin you appear to be making this up as you go along.

There is well documented in terms of a Libor fixing and FX fixing, but as we know, the number of people involved in that can be counted on fingers and toes. Mis-selling affects a larger number but still a small minority.

How does this translate into your claim that the whole industry is corrupt??

[turbobloke]

sidicks said:

crankedup said:

Indeed, unfortunately those investors were the financial pro's in the main, inter bank trading. Due diligence my arse, they for the most part were so over excited and arrogant they lost sight of all that stuff, but you know that. They assumed that they could dump the crap and hold the quality, fine but it all went wrong.

Yes I thought all the fiddles and downright criminality was well published, well it is and you know that. Stop being obtuse for a change.

Once agin you appear to be making this up as you go along.

There is well documented in terms of a Libor fixing and FX fixing, but as we know, the number of people involved in that can be counted on fingers and toes. Mis-selling affects a larger number but still a small minority.

How does this translate into your (crankedup's) claim that the whole industry is corrupt??

Did crankedup not do a U-turn on that a few posts ago? Having been shown the error of such a ludicrous claim the only way out was to backtrack and smear everyone in the industry via vague accusations of pernicious top-down tainting by a small number of real baddies.

Recently crankedup said:

Its not the % of people that is important though is it! Its the cretins that wielded power and instructed the workers.

Whatever that unsubstantiated waffle of a slur means, though it must mean something to crankedup.

[Rovinghawk]

crankedup said:

I have done OK and now semi-retired. My family are all all right jack.
.
.

What pees me off is the ever widening wealth gap taking us back to Victorian days.

So are you giving anything to those less well-off or are you just demanding that others are forced to do so, whether they share your views or not?

[sidicks]

turbobloke said:

Whatever that unsubstantiated waffle of a slur means, though it must mean something to crankedup.

His backtracking /apologies are certainly less vociferous than his (misguided) claims..!

[crankedup]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

It must always be remembered Thatchers great meddling resulting in de-regulation in the City

Actually it was Gordon Brown. He even apologised for it.

I've picked a fairly left-wing source for the proof as it seemed more likely to convince you:

http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/285/go...

When a sentence is written or the spoken word that commences with 'actually' it can be certain the person delivering has a certain pomposity of believing they are in some way superior.

Actually, if you do your home work you will find that Thatcher began (Big Bang)deregulation and Brown finished the job off.

[crankedup]

Dr Jekyll said:

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

It must always be remembered Thatchers great meddling resulting in de-regulation in the City

Actually it was Gordon Brown. He even apologised for it.

I've picked a fairly left-wing source for the proof as it seemed more likely to convince you:

http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/285/go...

Also remember that it was Thatcher's government that banned insider trading, Labour never bothered.

Shame as much effort was not put into regularity oversight as she put into closing down the Unions.

[crankedup]

sidicks said:

crankedup said:

Indeed, unfortunately those investors were the financial pro's in the main, inter bank trading. Due diligence my arse, they for the most part were so over excited and arrogant they lost sight of all that stuff, but you know that. They assumed that they could dump the crap and hold the quality, fine but it all went wrong.

Yes I thought all the fiddles and downright criminality was well published, well it is and you know that. Stop being obtuse for a change.

Once agin you appear to be making this up as you go along.

There is well documented in terms of a Libor fixing and FX fixing, but as we know, the number of people involved in that can be counted on fingers and toes. Mis-selling affects a larger number but still a small minority.

How does this translate into your claim that the whole industry is corrupt??

'Whole industry is corrupt' me say that!! shocking. No way would I ever say such a thing, it MAY SEEM CORRUPT, different entirely.

Your fixated on telling me that 'only a few were involved' less than a handful. Is it the same handful involved in all of the fiddles criminality and wrong doing? yet less keen to express just how many of these other employees benefited. Next thing you will be proclaiming is the banking crisis didn't happen at all and the industry is wholesome and clean throughout and within.

[sidicks]

crankedup said:

Next thing you will be proclaiming is the banking crisis didn't happen at all and the industry is wholesome and clean throughout and within.

[turbobloke]

crankedup said:

Next thing you will be proclaiming is the banking crisis didn't happen at all and the industry is wholesome and clean throughout and within.

[andymadmak]

crankedup said:

When a sentence is written or the spoken word that commences with 'actually' it can be certain the person delivering has a certain pomposity of believing they are in some way superior.

Actually, if you do your home work you will find that Thatcher began (Big Bang)deregulation and Brown finished the job off.

Yes, but Cranky, we have discussed this before. Mrs Thatcher did indeed start deregulation. But what she left in place was pretty secure. What Brown did was decimate regulation.

Think of it like your local builder. You want a window putting in and he does the job. He tells you the maximum size window you can instal is 1m2 due to the load bearing nature of the wall and such like. He does the job, instals all the appropriate reinforcements and lintels etc. You have a good window and a safe house.

Then a few years later you decide you want a bigger window, despite the original advice that 1m2 was all you could have. Another builder comes in and does the job and doubles the size of the window, but he is not sensible and bodges the whole thing, ignores structural requirements, does not instal reinforcements, lintels etc.

Then the house falls down due to the load bearing wall being structurally compromised.....

Is it

a) the original builders fault
b) the second builders fault
c) your fault for wanting a bigger window
d) your fault for believing the second builder over the advice of the first (and proven to be competent) builder
e) other

[crankedup]

Rovinghawk said:

crankedup said:

I have done OK and now semi-retired. My family are all all right jack.
.
.

What pees me off is the ever widening wealth gap taking us back to Victorian days.

So are you giving anything to those less well-off or are you just demanding that others are forced to do so, whether they share your views or not?

Pure guess here but I reckon most PHers can afford to dip into the wallet and offer some cash/FOC work perhaps both to chosen charity. Its rightly considered very bad form and positively ill mannered to 'shout out' what you as an individual contributed to charity! As you ask directly, I DO NOT give to those 'less well off' financially, other than a few quid for buskers now and again who are likely to be 'better off' than myself! I do subscribe on a D.D. to Gt Ormond Street the kiddies hospital. Next year I will chose a different charity.
There is nothing politically motivated that makes me want to give a little and perhaps that is the same for most who just want to 'do their bit'.

As for others who do not give to charity, that's up to them isn't it?
Is there any PH'ER who does not contribute to charity, I cannot imagine so.

[crankedup]

sidicks said:

crankedup said:

Next thing you will be proclaiming is the banking crisis didn't happen at all and the industry is wholesome and clean throughout and within.

Passe.

[crankedup]

andymadmak said:

crankedup said:

When a sentence is written or the spoken word that commences with 'actually' it can be certain the person delivering has a certain pomposity of believing they are in some way superior.

Actually, if you do your home work you will find that Thatcher began (Big Bang)deregulation and Brown finished the job off.

Yes, but Cranky, we have discussed this before. Mrs Thatcher did indeed start deregulation. But what she left in place was pretty secure. What Brown did was decimate regulation.

Think of it like your local builder. You want a window putting in and he does the job. He tells you the maximum size window you can instal is 1m2 due to the load bearing nature of the wall and such like. He does the job, instals all the appropriate reinforcements and lintels etc. You have a good window and a safe house.

Then a few years later you decide you want a bigger window, despite the original advice that 1m2 was all you could have. Another builder comes in and does the job and doubles the size of the window, but he is not sensible and bodges the whole thing, ignores structural requirements, does not instal reinforcements, lintels etc.

Then the house falls down due to the load bearing wall being structurally compromised.....

Is it

a) the original builders fault
b) the second builders fault
c) your fault for wanting a bigger window
d) your fault for believing the second builder over the advice of the first (and proven to be competent) builder
e) other

It is completely unreasonable to bring Brown and his misdemeanour's into the thread in as much as my posts are concerned. None of my posts have sought to support Brown or his policies.
I was told 'Actually' by some pretentious poster that, in response to my assertion Thatcher deregulated(big Bang) the poster came back telling me I was wrong. I wasn't he was and deserved to be told as much.
What Thatcher left in place wasn't pretty secure though, prior to her interference it was secure. Look at all the insider dealing, banks brought down by rogue traders, yes Brown finished the job she started. If we go back before these idiots meddled we seemed to have confidence in our financial system, Brown was a prat but Thatcher, so far as this is concerned was as bad.