Pakistan school Attack
Discussion
blindswelledrat said:
Mermaid said:
Pakistani Muslims have had more affinity towards the Afghani model than anyone else, neighbours of course.
Im sure this is probably true, but there is a huge gulf between saying what you are saying, and branding Pakistan as a s
t stain on society.Lost soul said:
more proof that Pakistan is becoming a st stain on humanity
Yet when you speak to people (non Pakistanis in particular) who have visited Pakistan they say the place is lovely and the people incredibly hospitable and friendly.t stain on humanity I'm a big cricket fan and know quite a few England fans who have visited the country and they have said more good things about the place than bad things. Even Botham's mother in law liked the place
Here's an interesting piece by Peter Oborne, the Telegraph and Spectator journalist, on his recent travels to that part of the world.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/asi...
The political, military and religious elite there may be 's
t stains on humanity' but the average citizen is no worse or better than anywhere else in the world.blindswelledrat said:
Lost soul said:
blindswelledrat said:
Lost soul said:
err no Pakistan is a country not a race , you are clearly of the hard of thinking
off you go
You complete prick.off you go
But just to clarify, leaving aside whether it is a race or not, you are including all the bereaved children and their families in this "s
t stain" insult yes?Did we miss the point?
BlackLabel said:
The political, military and religious elite there may be 'st stains on humanity' but the average citizen is no worse or better than anywhere else in the world.
Moreover, the 'answer' must come from within Pakistan.t stains on humanity' but the average citizen is no worse or better than anywhere else in the world.No solution which involves the explicit involvement of the outside world, especially the UK and USA is likely to be well received or lasting. I hope sense and humanity can prevail in Pakistan as well as Afghanistan.
Digga said:
BlackLabel said:
The political, military and religious elite there may be 'st stains on humanity' but the average citizen is no worse or better than anywhere else in the world.
Moreover, the 'answer' must come from within Pakistan.t stains on humanity' but the average citizen is no worse or better than anywhere else in the world.No solution which involves the explicit involvement of the outside world, especially the UK and USA is likely to be well received or lasting. I hope sense and humanity can prevail in Pakistan as well as Afghanistan.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-3051024...
This one caught me off guard....
BBC News said:
Across Peshawar, parents have been burying their children. Akhtar Hussain wept as he buried his 14-year-old son, Fahad.
"They finished in minutes what I had lived my whole life for, my son,'' the Associated Press news agency quotes him as saying. "That innocent one is now gone in the grave, and I can't wait to join him, I can't live anymore."
"They finished in minutes what I had lived my whole life for, my son,'' the Associated Press news agency quotes him as saying. "That innocent one is now gone in the grave, and I can't wait to join him, I can't live anymore."
Edited by Andehh on Wednesday 17th December 17:12
Reading some more about the course of events I think credit should be given to the special forces who dealt with it - it seems the operation was swift and efficient, with the end result being they saved the lives of 900 more people.
Despite how horrific this was, it could have been a whole lot worse without that effective level of response.
"Within 10-15 minutes, the Quick Reaction Force of the Pakistan Army had reached the school and entered the premises from two sides. The gunmen moved to the administration block of the school and took hostages there. One of them was gunned down by the military personnel near the auditorium while the other six managed to make it to the administration block.[23]
Meanwhile, the Pakistan Army's Special Services Group commandos had reached the area and surrounded the administration block. Most of the operation took place in the attempt to clear this block and rescue the hostages taken by the gunmen. Three terrorists were killed by the SSG shooters from the windows and air vents while the other three were gunned down when the commandos stormed the building and rescued many hostages in the process. Seven commandos including 2 officers were injured in the battle. A search and clearance operation was started immediately to defuse any IEDs planted by the gunmen within the school premises as well as the suicide vests that the terrorists were wearing.[24]
The militants were in contact with their handlers during the attack and that soon after the Quick Response Force (QRF) had moved in, the army intercepted their communication. “We know who they are and who they were in contact with but details can not be shared due to operation reasons. They were aware of locations and they must have carried out the recce of the area. And it is highly possible that someone from inside might have tipped them off,” said Bajwa. A total of 1099 students and staff were present in the school premises and the forces were successful in rescuing 960 of them. Of these, 121 were injured. A total of 132 children and 9 staff were killed in the attack."
Despite how horrific this was, it could have been a whole lot worse without that effective level of response.
"Within 10-15 minutes, the Quick Reaction Force of the Pakistan Army had reached the school and entered the premises from two sides. The gunmen moved to the administration block of the school and took hostages there. One of them was gunned down by the military personnel near the auditorium while the other six managed to make it to the administration block.[23]
Meanwhile, the Pakistan Army's Special Services Group commandos had reached the area and surrounded the administration block. Most of the operation took place in the attempt to clear this block and rescue the hostages taken by the gunmen. Three terrorists were killed by the SSG shooters from the windows and air vents while the other three were gunned down when the commandos stormed the building and rescued many hostages in the process. Seven commandos including 2 officers were injured in the battle. A search and clearance operation was started immediately to defuse any IEDs planted by the gunmen within the school premises as well as the suicide vests that the terrorists were wearing.[24]
The militants were in contact with their handlers during the attack and that soon after the Quick Response Force (QRF) had moved in, the army intercepted their communication. “We know who they are and who they were in contact with but details can not be shared due to operation reasons. They were aware of locations and they must have carried out the recce of the area. And it is highly possible that someone from inside might have tipped them off,” said Bajwa. A total of 1099 students and staff were present in the school premises and the forces were successful in rescuing 960 of them. Of these, 121 were injured. A total of 132 children and 9 staff were killed in the attack."
easytiger123 said:
KareemK said:
Joey Ramone said:
And although I don't want to get dragged into meaningless debates about moral relativism, I can pretty much guarantee that more than 132 children have been killed in drone attacks launched by US (and potentially UK) forces or government agencies over the past few years.
This is but certainly true.US Drone strikes have killed at least 168 children and over 775 innocent civilians in Pakistan according to this article dated 2011, god only knows how many since:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pak...
In just a single attack on a madrassah in 2006 69 children were killed.
Of course yesterdays news was horrific and the perpetrators need hanging but it should come as no surprise that the West's share of the guilt in the killing of children barely gets a mention let alone world wide outrage.
It's this imbalance/sense of unfairness that rankles with the militants and is just one of the reasons that they are still able to recruit from around the world even when they've commited this kind of atrocity, the fact that nobody says anything when the US et all are the guilty party.
If your kids had just been killed by (say) an IRA explosion detonated outside an army barracks you'd be screaming to the high heavens for vengenance/retribution because the IRA had planted a bomb where IT LIKELY COULD/WOULD kill innocent women and children.
Do you really think that if the West knew that a couple of very high value targets were at (say) a wedding they wouldn't attack that function by drone or cruise missile? The term "collateral damage" was actually coined by the US.
I'm sorry but dead kids are dead kids.
The rest is just spin.
Legend83 said:
A total of 1099 students and staff were present in the school premises and the forces were successful in rescuing 960 of them. Of these, 121 were injured. A total of 132 children and 9 staff were killed in the attack."
Puts a totally different perspective on it.Awful awful tragedy, but it could have been hugely worse.
I'm not sure why you don't identify the difference between intentional and accidental killings, though on a basic level I do support your point. If we were happy to target people indiscriminately, we wouldn't have wasted billions over the last decade (not to mention the lives) winning hearts and minds, we would have turned the Middle East into glass from the safety of our own shores.
We're fighting an enemy who holds no value in life and are happy to exploit our own ethics strategically - hiding in schools, mosques, taking human shields. Like I say, I'm glad I'll never be in a position where I have to weigh up the value of a target and the potential damage they might cause over the lives of an innocent group of civilians.
We're fighting an enemy who holds no value in life and are happy to exploit our own ethics strategically - hiding in schools, mosques, taking human shields. Like I say, I'm glad I'll never be in a position where I have to weigh up the value of a target and the potential damage they might cause over the lives of an innocent group of civilians.
2013BRM said:
This has fk all to do with race or religion, it's a bunch of depraved sick bds who need culling as soon as possible
It has everything to do with religion, these sick bk all to do with race or religion, it's a bunch of depraved sick bds who need culling as soon as possibleds are religiously motivated.I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
easytiger123 said:
Which entirely ignores that US drone strikes never intended to kill children, but yesterday's attacks (as with all attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists) most certainly did mean to murder as many children as possible.
It quite rightly ignores it. It's one of the most fundamental flaws in a moral argument you can make.Nobody else gives a f
k if we claim the dead kids we made were unintentional. Nobody gives a fk even if they do believe it. It is not a justification. Not "I'm not excusing them, but...". There is no but. Both sides have killed children. No pretty words change that.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
2013BRM said:
This has fk all to do with race or religion, it's a bunch of depraved sick bds who need culling as soon as possible
It has everything to do with religion, these sick bk all to do with race or religion, it's a bunch of depraved sick bds who need culling as soon as possibleds are religiously motivated.I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
KareemK said:
This is sad but certainly true.
US Drone strikes have killed at least 168 children and over 775 innocent civilians in Pakistan according to this article dated 2011, god only knows how many since:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pak...
In just a single attack on a madrassah in 2006 69 children were killed.
Of course yesterdays news was horrific and the perpetrators need hanging but it should come as no surprise that the West's share of the guilt in the killing of children barely gets a mention let alone world wide outrage.
It's this imbalance/sense of unfairness that rankles with the militants and is just one of the reasons that they are still able to recruit from around the world even when they've commited this kind of atrocity, the fact that nobody says anything when the US et all are the guilty party.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment I think it's a tough comparison, US drone strikes have supposedly killed a couple hundred children over the last 10 years, that's a few days work for the Taliban.US Drone strikes have killed at least 168 children and over 775 innocent civilians in Pakistan according to this article dated 2011, god only knows how many since:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pak...
In just a single attack on a madrassah in 2006 69 children were killed.
Of course yesterdays news was horrific and the perpetrators need hanging but it should come as no surprise that the West's share of the guilt in the killing of children barely gets a mention let alone world wide outrage.
It's this imbalance/sense of unfairness that rankles with the militants and is just one of the reasons that they are still able to recruit from around the world even when they've commited this kind of atrocity, the fact that nobody says anything when the US et all are the guilty party.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
It has everything to do with religion, these sick bds are religiously motivated.
I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
Why does the religious nature of the extremism matter? Surely it is the extremism that's the issue? Religion is one of many sources of blind, arrogant self-righteousness alongside nationalism, political beliefs, etc.ds are religiously motivated.I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
If someone argues that the world would be better off without religion, they might as well say it would be better off without politics and nationhood; contrary to human nature and also blind to the virtues of these concepts.
Sadly even if there were no religion these saps will have other reasons to do what they do.
I doubt many of the people committing atrocious acts during the Troubles did it because they were rabid Catholics or Proddies. The idiots that followed and supported them probably were.
The people involved were in it for the craic. Come from a poor estate, well get some respect by running with the local gang. They'll look after you, feed you and arm you. What's not to like.
Mujahadeen, Taleban, Al Q, IRA or just the Gangsta 'innit gang on your street. All allow you to rise above your humdrum existence.
I doubt many of the people committing atrocious acts during the Troubles did it because they were rabid Catholics or Proddies. The idiots that followed and supported them probably were.
The people involved were in it for the craic. Come from a poor estate, well get some respect by running with the local gang. They'll look after you, feed you and arm you. What's not to like.
Mujahadeen, Taleban, Al Q, IRA or just the Gangsta 'innit gang on your street. All allow you to rise above your humdrum existence.
ATG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
It has everything to do with religion, these sick bds are religiously motivated.
I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
Why does the religious nature of the extremism matter? Surely it is the extremism that's the issue? Religion is one of many sources of blind, arrogant self-righteousness alongside nationalism, political beliefs, etc.ds are religiously motivated.I wish apologists for religion would stop saying religious murders are nothing to do with religion. It may have nothing to do with your interpretation of religion, but that's another matter.
If someone argues that the world would be better off without religion, they might as well say it would be better off without politics and nationhood; contrary to human nature and also blind to the virtues of these concepts.
When there's a fatal RTA, we need to know were they a pedestrian, a motor cyclist, in a car. If car, were they a driver or a passenger? What type of car was it, was it being used on business or for pleasure.
If someone is murdered as a result of religion, you can't just dismiss it as nothing to do with religion when it is, because acknowledging the religious nature of the crime makes you uncomfortable.
I'm an atheist. If Richard Dawkins went on a killing spree and murdered the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, I wouldn't deny the involvement of atheism in that crime, just because it hampered my cause.
Muslims need to acknowledge this is a cancer within Islam, even if their own brand of Islam is different.
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