Trader goes missing after £130m of clients' cash disappears

[Eric Mc]

There is an odd mind set which tends to blame victims of the crime of fraud as being "non victims".

The only other crime where the victims tend to be blamed for their own misfortune is rape.

[Blib]

Your rape comparison is crass. This was a chap working out of a flat in Turkey offering rates of return far higher than the vast manority of other brokers..........

Edited by Blib on Sunday 21st December 23:49

[Eric Mc]

Blib said:

Your rape comparison is crass. This was a chap working out of a flat in Turkey offering rates of return far higher than the vast manority of other brokers..........

Edited by Blib on Sunday 21st December 23:49

All of these schemes seem plausible to certain people. Why?

And the other factor is - why are certain crimes seen as the fault of the victims rather than the fault of the perpetrators?

[anonymous-user]

Blib said:

Your rape comparison is crass. This was a chap working out of a flat in Turkey offering rates of return far higher than the vast manority of other brokers..........

Edited by Blib on Sunday 21st December 23:49

Comparing to rape is perhaps a little excessive but it's blaming the victims that is crass. These people are clearly not professional investors and evidently a bit thick but victims of a scam non the less.

[Ayahuasca]

Blib said:

soad said:

Blib said:

An aquaintance of mine is serving 13 years for an £86m fraud. He is, without a doubt, one of the most charming, charismatic people I've ever met.

Sociopaths are charming, right?

He certainly was.

One of the first things that taught me on a fraud-spotting course was 'You will never meet a successful fraudster that you don't like'.

Try being an disagreeable, obnoxious, anti-social con-artist and see how far you get...

[9mm]

Eric Mc said:

Blib said:

Your rape comparison is crass. This was a chap working out of a flat in Turkey offering rates of return far higher than the vast manority of other brokers..........

Edited by Blib on Sunday 21st December 23:49

All of these schemes seem plausible to certain people. Why?

Greed.

[Rude-boy]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Thing for Mr Lewis and his ilk is that for every 250 retired businessmen from Cambridgeshire who think that the best place to stick their nest egg is with some chap like this there are usually at least one or two less savoury people who have no choice but to invest their 'earnings' with such a scheme.

My prediction is that Mr Lewis is more than likely to have upset someone with enough resources to see him in a court to face the music or will have a final meeting with a, or a representative of, one of his former investors. Especially if he has been silly enough to go somewhere with a less than robust Police force.

[simoid]

Eric Mc said:

And the other factor is - why are certain crimes seen as the fault of the victims rather than the fault of the perpetrators?

The perception of the contributory factors towards the incidence of crime.

Ie did the victim take necessary precautions, or did they actively take decisions that made them more vulnerable to a crime?

[crankedup]

Ayahuasca said:

Blib said:

soad said:

Blib said:

An aquaintance of mine is serving 13 years for an £86m fraud. He is, without a doubt, one of the most charming, charismatic people I've ever met.

Sociopaths are charming, right?

He certainly was.

One of the first things that taught me on a fraud-spotting course was 'You will never meet a successful fraudster that you don't like'.

Try being an disagreeable, obnoxious, anti-social con-artist and see how far you get...

Wasn't this bloke a bona-fida experienced trader who allegedly has run off with some investors cash?

[youngsyr]

Anyone else think it's more likely that he lost all the money chasing bad losses, rather than ran off to a desert island with a suitcase full of cash?

Doesn't make what he did any better of course, but does take some of the sensationalism out of it.

[GTIR]

This chap was into FOREX trading and was "returning" 40% to investors. I know this because what I thought was an intelligent friend had invested a lot of his and other peoples money.

He (my friend) even tried to get me to invest and I just said "40% return is just not possible on any platform" and when he avoided my questions about if he'd got his money out I knew it was a scam.

Not to be confused with the other Joe Lewis of Tavistock Group.

[Digga]

fblm said:

Comparing to rape is perhaps a little excessive but it's blaming the victims that is crass. These people are clearly not professional investors and evidently a bit thick but victims of a scam non the less.

Agreed. If one thing is learned from the widespread PPI debacle, it is that technically and morally the general public cannot be assumed to have professional levels of expertise and knowledge. A lot of people get caught by the "too good to be true".

As for charismatic conmen, I have a vague acquaintance (that I keep at arms length) who is doing very well for himself right now... I think many of us know someone we have doubts about.

[RobinOakapple]

I think it's also to do with mindset, some people just see others as victims. Some salesmen are like this, and certainly all thieves and conmen are. Such people are, AFAIAC, surplus to humanity and would be better removed from it, just like cancer cells.

[youngsyr]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Well, I suppose it depends on the motive, if the intention all along was to deceive, then it makes no difference.

However, if the guy truly believed he could deliver those returns, then fell deeper and deeper into a spiral of lies and deceit trying to recover the position, it changes it from outright theft to fraud. End result is the same for the people's money that he lost, but morally at least there is a small distinction.

[youngsyr]

RobinOakapple said:

I think it's also to do with mindset, some people just see others as victims. Some salesmen are like this, and certainly all thieves and conmen are. Such people are, AFAIAC, surplus to humanity and would be better removed from it, just like cancer cells.

I don't think it has to do with seeing others as victims, just as inferior, which is an unfortunately human character trait. Hence the number of "-isms" (racism, sexism, etc) in the dictionary.

[RobinOakapple]

youngsyr said:

RobinOakapple said:

I think it's also to do with mindset, some people just see others as victims. Some salesmen are like this, and certainly all thieves and conmen are. Such people are, AFAIAC, surplus to humanity and would be better removed from it, just like cancer cells.

I don't think it has to do with seeing others as victims, just as inferior, which is an unfortunately human character trait. Hence the number of "-isms" (racism, sexism, etc) in the dictionary.

Well, I hope you won't mind if I disagree with you. Someone breaking into a house doesn't see the owner as inferior, especially if it's an expensive house, but they do see the owner as a victim. Prey in other words.

[youngsyr]

RobinOakapple said:

youngsyr said:

RobinOakapple said:

I think it's also to do with mindset, some people just see others as victims. Some salesmen are like this, and certainly all thieves and conmen are. Such people are, AFAIAC, surplus to humanity and would be better removed from it, just like cancer cells.

I don't think it has to do with seeing others as victims, just as inferior, which is an unfortunately human character trait. Hence the number of "-isms" (racism, sexism, etc) in the dictionary.

Well, I hope you won't mind if I disagree with you. Someone breaking into a house doesn't see the owner as inferior, especially if it's an expensive house, but they do see the owner as a victim. Prey in other words.

I think we're actually closer in opinion than I've been able to explain - I believe seeing people as victims is just the far end of the "seeing people as inferior" spectrum.

By believing some people are inferior, it allows people to commit all sorts of crimes (and wrongs) against them, from minor discrimination to genocide.

The genocides in Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda, Iraq and the former Yugoslavia all unfortunately show that seeing people as inferior is not as minority a belief as one would like.

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 22 December 11:45

[bigandclever]

When I got done over it was a combination of many things. Not sure I'd consider myself a 'victim', as such and certainly my greed played a major factor in being involved in the first place; but at the other end was my crooked accountant who ran the scheme. I was lucky, the FSA froze his accounts before all the 'investments' were spunked away, but he still managed to take over £1million (from everyone, not just me).

[youngsyr]

bigandclever said:

When I got done over it was a combination of many things. Not sure I'd consider myself a 'victim', as such and certainly my greed played a major factor in being involved in the first place; but at the other end was my crooked accountant who ran the scheme. I was lucky, the FSA froze his accounts before all the 'investments' were spunked away, but he still managed to take over £1million (from everyone, not just me).

It's also tricky for the non-financially literate (and even the financially literate, sometimes) to spot frauds.

Yes, the headline return on investment should raise eyebrows, but I've seen investments produce ridiculous returns over the past few years, so it's not always a dead giveaway.

Don't forget that Enron and Worldcom (amongst others) pulled the wool over supposedly the best auditors in the business.

[V8 Fettler]

Under Turkish law, is Lewis personally liable for the losses? The Turks must surely/shurley/shirley have the equivalent of ltd co status.