Bin Lorry crashes in Glasgow

[TheJimi]

Troubleatmill said:

TheJimi said:

What is the point of you post, exactly? Has anyone said he is justified or that it was fine? The short answer to that is no, they haven't.

Which makes your post kinda...stupid.

Edited by TheJimi on Monday 17th August 18:21

Thank you for that wonderful insight.
You did see the post previous to mine... right?

Play nice

Yes, I saw the post previous to yours, and it still didn't warrant your reply.

So I stand by my original assertion that your post was stupid, since at no point did iKarl justify or allude to the idea that what the driver did was "fine".

Try reading what is actually being written as opposed to what you want to read.

Edited by TheJimi on Monday 17th August 23:35

[TheSnitch]

amare32 said:

In the last 9 months, I had nothing but sympathy for the driver but after the revelations in the last few weeks, it's beyond vile that someone's
decision to hide his medical past has resulted in the death of so many innocent people..

I think the fact that he applied for the return of both his ordinary and HGV licences, and that they were reinstated, did not help matters. They were returned in April, although they have since been suspended again.

I have a problem with someone who is aware that they have a health issue which causes them to black out, who kills six people in December and who asks for his licence back within a couple of months. Did he seriously think he was going to go back to driving heavy vehicles? I find that very worrying

[Sheepshanks]

TheSnitch said:

I think it's probably unlikely if the crown office has said he will not face prosecution in connection with the event. I guess it would still be seen as being associated with the event.

It feels like the public have been deliberately misled, tbh. The driver when he spoke to the papers said something like ''Until that day I didn't even know I had something wrong with my heart'' so there was a clear implication that he'd had some tind of cardiac event.

That wasn't the case

I wonder if people are looking at the quality of the initial investigation into the driver? His dodgy medical history appears to have been missed completely

[Sheepshanks]

Vipers said:

amare32 said:

In the last 9 months, I had nothing but sympathy for the driver but after the revelations in the last few weeks, it's beyond vile that someone's decision to hide his medical past has resulted in the death of so many innocent people..

How many drivers on our roads are doing the same. A few years ago a friend had a mild stroke, his GP told him not to drive for 30 days and until he had seen him for a check up.

No contact was made with DVLA.

Yet a colleague had the edge of his vision go. Got referred to a consultant who said it *might* be a stroke and told him not to drive. He had to get his wife to pick up his car.

Consultant wrote to DVLA and they withdrew his licence and it took 2yrs to get it back. He had to move house as he couldn't commute to work.

[TheSnitch]

Sheepshanks said:

I wonder if people are looking at the quality of the initial investigation into the driver? His dodgy medical history appears to have been missed completely

That has certainly been raised by the families who say that the Crown Office were not aware of all the facts before making their decision not to charge him. The Crown Office disagree, they say they knew about all of it.

I'm sure the repercussions will reverberate for some time to come yet

[ikarl]

greygoose said:

ikarl said:

greygoose said:

Given the accident and deaths involved, would you be any better than him now if placed in such a hypothetical position?

Sorry, I'm not completely sure what you're asking.

I think you're asking if by saying what I am, does that make me as bad as he is....if so, yes, in a way it probably does. I can't hide from that.

I can't walk a mile in that guys shoes etc,... I'm in my 30's, I've always worked hard, upskilled myself throughout my life and I feel I'm adaptable to most situations, however if I was that guy in his situation (middle aged, unemployed, no skills, family to support, mortgage etc) I can see why he would do what he did.

Edited by ikarl on Monday 17th August 22:45

I am asking that if you were in the driver's situation, would you do the same as him knowing now that six people could die due to your actions?

I don't think I could, I certainly wouldn't hang around for the hearing in such a circumstance, I would have topped myself through guilt.

Thanks for clarification.

Hell no. Never in a million years.... I find what happened absolutely appalling, the fact he reapplied for his licence is particularly disgusting!

I stand by my previous posts however. I can, in part, understand why he continued to drive.

[neelyp]

Vipers said:

amare32 said:

In the last 9 months, I had nothing but sympathy for the driver but after the revelations in the last few weeks, it's beyond vile that someone's decision to hide his medical past has resulted in the death of so many innocent people..

How many drivers on our roads are doing the same. A few years ago a friend had a mild stroke, his GP told him not to drive for 30 days and until he had seen him for a check up.

No contact was made with DVLA.

Did your friend then lie about being told not to drive to enable him to continue driving?

[glazbagun]

eharding said:

paranoid airbag said:

eharding said:

I'd suggest you have an extremely warped world view if that's really how you think.

Let's suppose *you* discover that you have a medical condition that renders you a danger to yourself and others should you continue to drive - would you happily still do so regardless, and would you lie about it when asked directly whether or not you had such a condition?

Further to that, should you end up killing someone as a result, would you genuinely expect there to be no repercussions?

Probably, unless I thought it made me genuinely hopeless. The chances of being caught are small, the chances of my life turning to st without access to a car almost certain, since you are damn well not going to pay for me to be driven everywhere - more likely you're going to call me benefit scrounging scum. Go on then: who was the last person you knew sacrificed their mobility and livelihood for the sake of a stranger when they thought they could get away with it? Half the people I see won't sacrifice facebook for that.

I'd say your circle of acquaintances would appear to be just as self-obsessed and narcissistic as you do if that really is the case. Do you really think you have an unfettered right to have access to a car?

You haven't replied to the second point. If you killed someone as a result of driving with a known debilitating condition, which you had wilfully lied about in order to keep driving, do you really think that you shouldn't suffer any adverse consequences as a result?

I reckon he's dead on on the first point(if disturbingly more honest than most). Not because I walk around thinking "fk everyone, I'm a massive selfish bd and I love it, ho ho ho", but because it seems to be basic psychology.

Prospect theory, all that jazz- People are more likely gamble when faced with a choice of two really poor choices (ignoring a health problem or going without work).

We're risk averse but will tend to pick an unlikely catastrophic outcome over a surefire pretty damn bad one. Now that I type, it possibly explains hit-and-run behavior from the likes of Ed Balls, much as I'd like to believe it was due to his utter contempt for his fellow man.

We can crow about how totally disgusting it is (and it is), but It's more explainable (IMO) than someone out for a hoon who wipes out another car/bus stop full of orphan children.

As for repercussions, I guess throw the book at him and the council/employers too if they've missed anything they shouldn't have. But the more I've read about they way people so often behave more or less exactly as they'd be expected to, the harder I find it to maintain a hang-em-high attitude.

Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 18th August 13:07

[ikarl]

Yup, I agree with pretty much everything you've said there Glazbagun.

As a driver he probably saw it as a low risk that he would pass out at the wheel. Obviously the impact is high (devastating in this instance) but, would that even have registered when he was weighing it up against the loss to him/his family?

[Vipers]

neelyp said:

Vipers said:

amare32 said:

In the last 9 months, I had nothing but sympathy for the driver but after the revelations in the last few weeks, it's beyond vile that someone's decision to hide his medical past has resulted in the death of so many innocent people..

How many drivers on our roads are doing the same. A few years ago a friend had a mild stroke, his GP told him not to drive for 30 days and until he had seen him for a check up.

No contact was made with DVLA.

Did your friend then lie about being told not to drive to enable him to continue driving?

Knowing him as I do, I would say no he didn't. He only drove for pleasure anyway.

[bitchstewie]

ikarl said:

Sorry, I'm not completely sure what you're asking.

I think you're asking if by saying what I am, does that make me as bad as he is....if so, yes, in a way it probably does. I can't hide from that.

I can't walk a mile in that guys shoes etc,... I'm in my 30's, I've always worked hard, upskilled myself throughout my life and I feel I'm adaptable to most situations, however if I was that guy in his situation (middle aged, unemployed, no skills, family to support, mortgage etc) I can see why he would do what he did.

Quite.

I can't agree with what he did, but I can't sit here hand on heart and say that in his shoes I wouldn't have. It's easy to moralise but (and of course I don't know the guys personal circumstances) if you're worrying about where the next pay cheque is coming from it's not such an easy question to answer.

[anonymous-user]

Vipers said:

neelyp said:

Vipers said:

amare32 said:

In the last 9 months, I had nothing but sympathy for the driver but after the revelations in the last few weeks, it's beyond vile that someone's decision to hide his medical past has resulted in the death of so many innocent people..

How many drivers on our roads are doing the same. A few years ago a friend had a mild stroke, his GP told him not to drive for 30 days and until he had seen him for a check up.

No contact was made with DVLA.

Did your friend then lie about being told not to drive to enable him to continue driving?

Knowing him as I do, I would say no he didn't. He only drove for pleasure anyway.

No issue. The rules are quite clear on strokes and you don't have to tell the DVLA unless you're still having problems after a month. If he was I'm sure the doc would have advised him so.

If we're talking about a hgv/psv license you have to advise DVLA straight away and your license will be suspended.

[babatunde]

The driver of the bin lorry that crashed in Glasgow killing six people has refused to answer questions as he began giving evidence to an inquiry into the tragedy.

Harry Clarke, 58, took the oath and was told by Sheriff John Beckett QC that he did not have to answer any questions that might incriminate him.

Clarke confirmed his name and gave his occupation as an LGV driver, but said he would refuse to answer any further questions.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/20/gla...

I really don't understand why he isn't being prosecuted.

Edited by babatunde on Thursday 20th August 13:18

[dudleybloke]

babatunde said:

The driver of the bin lorry that crashed in Glasgow killing six people has refused to answer questions as he began giving evidence to an inquiry into the tragedy.

Harry Clarke, 58, took the oath and was told by Sheriff John Beckett QC that he did not have to answer any questions that might incriminate him.

Clarke confirmed his name and gave his occupation as an LGV driver, but said he would refuse to answer any further questions.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/20/gla...

If it was a 25yr old who crashed the bin lorry you can bet he would be being prosecuted.
Why treat him with kid gloves when he's old enough to know better.

[Pesty]

The questions moved to the bin lorry crash and Thomson said: “Do you know that six people died on December 22?”

Clarke said: “I don’t want to answer that question.”

What a .

[Electronicpants]

.

Edited by Electronicpants on Thursday 20th August 13:34

[heebeegeetee]

Pesty said:

The questions moved to the bin lorry crash and Thomson said: “Do you know that six people died on December 22?”

Clarke said: “I don’t want to answer that question.”

What a .

It's a fking stupid question.

[heebeegeetee]

Electronicpants said:

Anybody else think the court room artist has drawn Dr Nefario from Despicable Me by mistake.

Dr Nefario


Harry Clarke

Bad form. I think the severity of this case is beyond this sort of garbage.

[Pesty]

Oh it is. Absolutely but an answer of something like I'm very painfully aware of that fact and I think about it every day might have been better.

It wouldn't incriminate him but it might help the victims families sitting there watching.

[Electronicpants]

heebeegeetee said:

Bad form. I think the severity of this case is beyond this sort of garbage.

Apologies, just struck me when reading the Beeb web site at lunch, will remove.