What is going on in the world and France!
Discussion
smegmore said:
gtidriver said:
Are they living in the shanty towns on the outskirts of paris? Can't believe Paris officials are allowing this...
No, not shanty towns, some of the arrondissements in Paris and some of the larger cities such as Lyon... Agrispeed said:
I never felt that when I spent time there. It felt very diffrent to Marseilles, which is like you describe. I was in the posh bit though - It's very pretty!
I never saw any posh parts in my 3 visits to Marseilles, I can imagine Liverpool during the worst bombing in WW2, except with the SS dressed in s
tstopper trousers terminating twixt knee and ankle together with the obligatory kuffiyeh, hanging around in large groups on street corners just waiting for an unsuspecting kuffar to happen along so they could oblige him with a 'mid-day shave'.A s
tehole is what I saw. smegmore said:
Derek Smith said:
If you look at it logically, this is just some nutter in a van. There will always be nutters, and being nutters are all but impossible to predict.
But not so long ago we had people, UK nationals for generations, who were willing to plant bombs to blow up pregnant women. Whilst these must have been mad in most senses of the word apart from the legal one, they were a large group, educated and without excuses.
Yes Derek but the people you're talking about were either gangsters or politically motivated pragmatists, not delusional fairy-tale believers.But not so long ago we had people, UK nationals for generations, who were willing to plant bombs to blow up pregnant women. Whilst these must have been mad in most senses of the word apart from the legal one, they were a large group, educated and without excuses.
A big difference in ideology.
Most large religions are political movements. The catholic religions from the time of the first council of Nicea (otherwise known as the end of christianity) were political. And in this they were no different from any of the others that came before or after. Hen VIII's dissolution of the monasteries and creation of the CoE was not a religious move but political. Also, he had to get the money for his castles from somewhere. Whilst protestantism started as a desire to change the political church into a religious one, it soon became exactly what it protested against.
The individual might well be delusional, and almost certainly is, but the leaders are political. Even the pope, according to the papers, believes this.
The school children were not killed out of religious misinterpretation but for purely, if that's the correct modifier, political motives. There was similarly no religious motives behind the planting of bombs by the pira. It was just those who were totally selfish and believed that killing people with no connection to them in any way was justified by their political desires.
Nutters are nutters. If they didn't have religion they'd find some other belief to latch onto to make themselves feel important.
smegmore said:
Derek Smith said:
If you look at it logically, this is just some nutter in a van. There will always be nutters, and being nutters are all but impossible to predict.
But not so long ago we had people, UK nationals for generations, who were willing to plant bombs to blow up pregnant women. Whilst these must have been mad in most senses of the word apart from the legal one, they were a large group, educated and without excuses.
Yes Derek but the people you're talking about were either gangsters or politically motivated pragmatists, not delusional fairy-tale believers.But not so long ago we had people, UK nationals for generations, who were willing to plant bombs to blow up pregnant women. Whilst these must have been mad in most senses of the word apart from the legal one, they were a large group, educated and without excuses.
A big difference in ideology.
I thought the comment re the current Glasgow tragedy was in appalling taste. Not from either of yourselves, apologies for any confusion.
Derek Smith said:
Are you saying that those who cultivate and send youngsters into suicide missions are not politically motivated or gangsters?
Most large religions are political movements...
Nutters are nutters. If they didn't have religion they'd find some other belief to latch onto to make themselves feel important.
Good points and perhaps crucial in unraveling the current problems and deciding the correct solution.Most large religions are political movements...
Nutters are nutters. If they didn't have religion they'd find some other belief to latch onto to make themselves feel important.
Firstly, the dogma of hardcore Islam is quite radically different to the differences between Protestant and Catholic - it goes a long way beyond. Culturally, the extremists have a much wider gulf between their world view and that of western democracy than either the Northern Irish terrorist groups ever did.
Many of the liberal freedoms we now take for granted and as being a desirable part of our culture - equality in terms of gender, race, religion and sexuality - are alien concepts to the extremists.
You also have the issue that many western nationals who are radicalised are, through atrocious immigration and integration mismanagement, effectively already significantly 'apart' from society, in ghettos and cultural backwaters. There is no much effort required on the part of the agitators to recruit many of the disenfranchised.
Four Litre said:
Until we adress these problems directly, it will just go on and on, gradually escalating, as it is now.
Whats the solution - I dont know, but its going to be unpleasant and not pretty.
That's the most important bit: what can we do to protect ourselves?Whats the solution - I dont know, but its going to be unpleasant and not pretty.
I've always been a believer in education, as is, apparently, the nutter Blair when he generated religious schools. We now have children going to schools where that that run it, funded by me, believe in divisiveness. What could go wrong, eh?
That I think is the first thing we should push for: stop funding religious schools. This will reduce the ability of the radicals and the self important to indoctrinate kids.
Make religious education compulsory up to the age of 18. The curriculum should cover all religions, from Sun worship to the really odd ones, like the Abrahamic religions. Also covered should be the saints, such as the one who changed sardines into pilchards. The children should be exposed to the dark side such as the abuse of women, the political machinations of those in charge at the time of the holy roman empire. The burnings and the tortures, all supported by the various churches, by inspiration of the infallible popes whose actions have since been apologised for by the current incumbent.
Let's show up religions for what they have done.
Show the scientific awakening of the middle east and its subsequent reduction into myth and backwardness under the control of the religious. frightened of knowledge as it had the power to destroy them.
Instead of moaning, we should push for something to be done by our MPs.
Derek Smith said:
Four Litre said:
Until we adress these problems directly, it will just go on and on, gradually escalating, as it is now.
Whats the solution - I dont know, but its going to be unpleasant and not pretty.
That's the most important bit: what can we do to protect ourselves?Whats the solution - I dont know, but its going to be unpleasant and not pretty.
I've always been a believer in education, as is, apparently, the nutter Blair when he generated religious schools. We now have children going to schools where that that run it, funded by me, believe in divisiveness. What could go wrong, eh?
That I think is the first thing we should push for: stop funding religious schools. This will reduce the ability of the radicals and the self important to indoctrinate kids.
Make religious education compulsory up to the age of 18. The curriculum should cover all religions, from Sun worship to the really odd ones, like the Abrahamic religions. Also covered should be the saints, such as the one who changed sardines into pilchards. The children should be exposed to the dark side such as the abuse of women, the political machinations of those in charge at the time of the holy roman empire. The burnings and the tortures, all supported by the various churches, by inspiration of the infallible popes whose actions have since been apologised for by the current incumbent.
Let's show up religions for what they have done.
Show the scientific awakening of the middle east and its subsequent reduction into myth and backwardness under the control of the religious. frightened of knowledge as it had the power to destroy them.
Instead of moaning, we should push for something to be done by our MPs.
Until trust can be restored I would like to see a lot of the mosques shut down - the remaining fully policed (at the expense of the mosque, call it 'terror tax', whatever you like) and monitored until trust can be returned (if it can). If muslims dont like it, tough, earn back some trust and respect, if not the doors open.
Four Litre said:
I've never understood how a school can teach science and then pop over to RE for a lesson that is based on fantasy and at the contradiction of fact.
As a teenager I was once sent to the headmaster to explain why I should remain in (Catholic) school. My crime was to have an argument with the RE teacher about the contradiction between the bible's explanation of the creation of the world/universe around us, and my Physics teacher's explanation of the Big Bang (which, granted, is still just a theory, but backed up with lots of evidence rather than a ragbag collection of fairy stories)Derek Smith said:
That's the most important bit: what can we do to protect ourselves?
I've always been a believer in education, as is, apparently, the nutter Blair when he generated religious schools. We now have children going to schools where that that run it, funded by me, believe in divisiveness. What could go wrong, eh?
That I think is the first thing we should push for: stop funding religious schools. This will reduce the ability of the radicals and the self important to indoctrinate kids.
Make religious education compulsory up to the age of 18. The curriculum should cover all religions, from Sun worship to the really odd ones, like the Abrahamic religions. Also covered should be the saints, such as the one who changed sardines into pilchards. The children should be exposed to the dark side such as the abuse of women, the political machinations of those in charge at the time of the holy roman empire. The burnings and the tortures, all supported by the various churches, by inspiration of the infallible popes whose actions have since been apologised for by the current incumbent.
Let's show up religions for what they have done.
Show the scientific awakening of the middle east and its subsequent reduction into myth and backwardness under the control of the religious. frightened of knowledge as it had the power to destroy them.
Instead of moaning, we should push for something to be done by our MPs.
Blair didn't generate religious schools, they always existed. He was just unable/unwilling to say why he could refuse Islamic schools. He said so himself.I've always been a believer in education, as is, apparently, the nutter Blair when he generated religious schools. We now have children going to schools where that that run it, funded by me, believe in divisiveness. What could go wrong, eh?
That I think is the first thing we should push for: stop funding religious schools. This will reduce the ability of the radicals and the self important to indoctrinate kids.
Make religious education compulsory up to the age of 18. The curriculum should cover all religions, from Sun worship to the really odd ones, like the Abrahamic religions. Also covered should be the saints, such as the one who changed sardines into pilchards. The children should be exposed to the dark side such as the abuse of women, the political machinations of those in charge at the time of the holy roman empire. The burnings and the tortures, all supported by the various churches, by inspiration of the infallible popes whose actions have since been apologised for by the current incumbent.
Let's show up religions for what they have done.
Show the scientific awakening of the middle east and its subsequent reduction into myth and backwardness under the control of the religious. frightened of knowledge as it had the power to destroy them.
Instead of moaning, we should push for something to be done by our MPs.
Good luck in trying for a lesson based on what religion has done, because unless it's all wonderful and fluffy stuff, you'll kick off a s
t load of hatred for all the religious nutters and Guardian readers about how you are trying to poison people in school against religion. I think I had either 30 mins or an hour a week of religious drivel that someone tried to push into my soft head. If they could clone my old RE teacher, he would do a better job to turn people away from it than anyone. A nasty b
d ( as were coincidentally all the RE teachers ) who made every 8 year old wonder why the creation of man the universe and everything could be some utterly mind-numbingly dull and tedious.Push your MP for a total ban on all religious schools if you want to do anything.
MarshPhantom said:
I'm sure "we" have killed more of "them" than they have of us over the years.
Both of which figures fade into insignificance compared to the numbers of "themselves" they have killed, the prevention of which has been more often than not our rationale for intervening.JustAnotherLogin said:
Perspective:
It is estimated that there are 2.3 billion muslims in the world. Muslim terrorist attacks in 2014 (a bad year) have
killed 871 people (as of a few days ago)
You can't add 'perspective' with completely made up numbers. There are closer to half that number of Muslims and ISIS alone have murdered ten times that number of Iraqi civilians and god knows the terror they have visited on those they haven't killed.It is estimated that there are 2.3 billion muslims in the world. Muslim terrorist attacks in 2014 (a bad year) have
killed 871 people (as of a few days ago)
Possibly more stuff in Cannes : http://news.sky.com/story/1396813/man-held-in-cann...
fblm said:
You can't add 'perspective' with completely made up numbers. There are closer to half that number of Muslims and ISIS alone have murdered ten times that number of Iraqi civilians and god knows the terror they have visited on those they haven't killed.
Wasn't Lee Rigby murdered in 2013?Mr_B said:
Blair didn't generate religious schools, they always existed. He was just unable/unwilling to say why he could refuse Islamic schools. He said so himself.
Good luck in trying for a lesson based on what religion has done, because unless it's all wonderful and fluffy stuff, you'll kick off a st load of hatred for all the religious nutters and Guardian readers about how you are trying to poison people in school against religion.
I think I had either 30 mins or an hour a week of religious drivel that someone tried to push into my soft head. If they could clone my old RE teacher, he would do a better job to turn people away from it than anyone. A nasty bd ( as were coincidentally all the RE teachers ) who made every 8 year old wonder why the creation of man the universe and everything could be some utterly mind-numbingly dull and tedious.
Push your MP for a total ban on all religious schools if you want to do anything.
Blair did push the financial side of religious schools. Under him they increased in number and there was a singular lack of control over them. Who would have thought that fundamentalists would get in?Good luck in trying for a lesson based on what religion has done, because unless it's all wonderful and fluffy stuff, you'll kick off a s
t load of hatred for all the religious nutters and Guardian readers about how you are trying to poison people in school against religion. I think I had either 30 mins or an hour a week of religious drivel that someone tried to push into my soft head. If they could clone my old RE teacher, he would do a better job to turn people away from it than anyone. A nasty b
d ( as were coincidentally all the RE teachers ) who made every 8 year old wonder why the creation of man the universe and everything could be some utterly mind-numbingly dull and tedious.Push your MP for a total ban on all religious schools if you want to do anything.
Under him it was like Chas I all over again, with the wife pushing the bloke towards catholicism and him not being able to admit it. He was feted by one of the popes for services to that religion. One is tempted to view the different outcomes for each of them.
I had a different problem with the RE teacher in my school. The bloke was charming. He took an interest in individuals, would admit that there was no proof and him and his wife did a lot for his local community. He got a couple of awards for good work and had letters after his name. I liked his lessons as we were allowed to argue.
Afterwards, I felt it was a bit of a dirty trick. Not believing seemed to betray the bloke.
So a debt there I owe to Blair I suppose.
Stuart70 said:
1970s &80's Northern Ireland would be an example; and they were only arguing about the precise flavour of imaginary friend!
No they weren't, the very last thing they were arguing over was Holy Water, Celibacy and the existence of Purgatory.N. Ireland was/still is all about politics and in particular Nationality and perceived social injustice/discrimination. The 2 Religions are easily reconciled, its the other stuff thats the problem.
fblm said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Perspective:
It is estimated that there are 2.3 billion muslims in the world. Muslim terrorist attacks in 2014 (a bad year) have
killed 871 people (as of a few days ago)
You can't add 'perspective' with completely made up numbers. There are closer to half that number of Muslims and ISIS alone have murdered ten times that number of Iraqi civilians and god knows the terror they have visited on those they haven't killed.It is estimated that there are 2.3 billion muslims in the world. Muslim terrorist attacks in 2014 (a bad year) have
killed 871 people (as of a few days ago)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terro...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Wikipedia I know, but by all means show evidence to support your case that makes a material difference.
I believe the ISIS vs Iraq may count as war rather than terrorist attacks (if one includes the number killed by US citizens in war that will also of course go up substantially).
Dererk Smith. I do tend to agree with the proposal for balanced RS teaching about all of them. Though for true balance one would need to cover the even worse atrocities committed by atheists (Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot) for example. Then perhaps children could learn the dangers of being fanatical about any human organisation - whether it be religious groups, political parties or even football clubs. All such fanaticism seems to end in violence
'The French government deployed extra troops to patrol streets and urged calm today after three attacks which caused one death and injured some 30 people, stirring fear of copy-cat violence by Islamist extremists'
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
So they already had troops on the street. Things certainly are escalating there.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
So they already had troops on the street. Things certainly are escalating there.
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