Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 3

[George111]

robinessex said:

. . . bks from Pickles.

I know a chap who can't find his own arse in the dark who would realise that solar and wind can not replace coal.

[LongQ]

motco said:

What a stupid Canute the Pickles man is...

Ah, but it would seem that Canute was smart in that he knew full well the sea would do what it would do.

His believers, however, were unable to properly appreciate that fact without a full practical demonstration.

I suppose he just could not get the right staff.

[turbobloke]

AreOut said:

turbobloke you really have nerves of steel

ISWYM...

Durbster said:

Actually I'm struggling to find most of the papers you listed. Any pointers?

edit again: Oh found them on No Tricks Zone. Should have guessed. Is this another NTZ list that isn't actually what it says it is, like the last one? Is it worth bothering to look?

Look for yourself and report back. It helps if you have been (generously!) given access to most of the scientific literature through a uni for which you were previously a Masters lecturer or via the royal scientific societies (not RS) but if either of these avenues doesn't apply to you then I don't know of an easy fix - apart from paying for access where a publisher offers this facility online.

I cited only primary sources, with no secondary source, so the papers involved stand or fall on their merits, with no secondary source contamination.

When you've found them you can always contact the authorship teams with any queries, I find it can work well as long as you don't ask silly questions, which I manage to avoid.

However from previous occasions where I provided shorter lists of references (ice? sea level? time flies) you didn't return with any meaningful comments and tbh I suspect your approach is just bluster at times like this, albeit worded to suggest sincerity. Could be wrong, just offering an opinion based on evidence, but may peace and goodwill reign either way.

[motco]

LongQ said:

motco said:

What a stupid Canute the Pickles man is...

Ah, but it would seem that Canute was smart in that he knew full well the sea would do what it would do.

His believers, however, were unable to properly appreciate that fact without a full practical demonstration.

I suppose he just could not get the right staff.

Indeed so. I was employing poetic licence and pandering to the popular myth that Canute was the instigator of the ill-founded belief that he was all-powerful. Sadly, Pickles probably isn't that clever to use a feint like Canute's!

[LongQ]

motco said:

LongQ said:

motco said:

What a stupid Canute the Pickles man is...

Ah, but it would seem that Canute was smart in that he knew full well the sea would do what it would do.

His believers, however, were unable to properly appreciate that fact without a full practical demonstration.

I suppose he just could not get the right staff.

Indeed so. I was employing poetic licence and pandering to the popular myth that Canute was the instigator of the ill-founded belief that he was all-powerful. Sadly, Pickles probably isn't that clever to use a feint like Canute's!

I doubt Eric Pickles has ever seriously looked into the matter of CC. He can rely on being well fed by information through the political systems to say "the right thing".

Whenever the names Pickles comes up I an always reminded of the dog that found the World Cup after it was stolen in 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickles_(dog)

A short life but a long period of fame and historic legacy. Not unlike Canute in some ways.

It seems unlikely that will be the fate of Eric.

[Halb]

durbster said:

Halb said:

It's computer models that say MMGW exists isn't it?

I assume you know the answer, so are leading somewhere

I don't recall chatting to you much, I've dropped in and out of this thread over the years, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on ignorantly assuming.
I used the '?' symbol, this means it's a question. I wish to chat to someone who believes in MMGW.
I don't hold strong views myself but over the years I've come more round to the, 'it isn't necessarily so' side, this thread (or others like it) have contributed to my thoughts, but nothing is set in stone. And I try and listen to what's going on as opposed to any pre-conceived bias (I try and do this in all).
I give balanced listening to anyone that'll talk as a normal human being.

[Jasandjules]

Still rather a lot of chat going on about this "planet threatening" issue, yet still no answers as to what is the "right" temp and CO2 level for the planet. So how can anyone know what temp and Co2 levels will be "wrong". I await with anticipation the answers as to the correct temp and CO2 levels from those who accept (after having clearly looked into the matter) that Global Warming is happening and caused by man and is a danger.

[turbobloke]

Jasandjules said:

Still rather a lot of chat going on about this "planet threatening" issue, yet still no answers as to what is the "right" temp and CO2 level for the planet. So how can anyone know what temp and Co2 levels will be "wrong". I await with anticipation the answers as to the correct temp and CO2 levels from those who accept (after having clearly looked into the matter) that Global Warming is happening and caused by man and is a danger.

Good luck with getting any substantive response to your perfectly reasonable questions. I gave them a plug yesterday but it hasn't helped as yet.

Yesterday I said:

Having answered your question, again, now you can have a go at answering mine for the first time - and the reasonable questions from Jasandjules while you're at it.

Mine is: when you saw the invisible causal human signal in global climate data, where was it?

Answers are bound to appear soon.

[Pan Pan Pan]

If as some contend, humans `have / are' causing global warming, why are we adding between 287 to 340 plus thousand net new humans to the planet every DAY?
For the MMGW promoters this seems to the equivalent of discovering a fire, and running around shouting Fire Fire!we`re doomed! whilst at the same time pouring on, (or allowing to be poured) 340 thousand plus gallons of petrol onto the fire, they seem to be so worried about. That would seem to be the mark of insanity.
If global warming is man made, why are we producing ever more numbers of what they say is the root cause of it?

[turbobloke]

Pan Pan Pan said:

If as some contend, humans `have / are' causing global warming, why are we adding between 287 to 340 plus thousand net new humans to the planet every DAY?
For the MMGW promoters this seems to the equivalent of discovering a fire, and running around shouting Fire Fire!we`re doomed! whilst at the same time pouring on, (or allowing to be poured) 340 thousand plus gallons of petrol onto the fire, they seem to be so worried about. That would seem to be the mark of insanity.
If global warming is man made, why are we producing ever more numbers of what they say is the root cause of it?

Good timing!

As posted yesterday at 0939hrs:

They have already said:

http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-...

NPR:
'Should We Be Having Kids In The Age Of Climate Change?’ ‘Maybe we should protect our kids by not having them’

[Pan Pan Pan]

turbobloke said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

If as some contend, humans `have / are' causing global warming, why are we adding between 287 to 340 plus thousand net new humans to the planet every DAY?
For the MMGW promoters this seems to the equivalent of discovering a fire, and running around shouting Fire Fire!we`re doomed! whilst at the same time pouring on, (or allowing to be poured) 340 thousand plus gallons of petrol onto the fire, they seem to be so worried about. That would seem to be the mark of insanity.
If global warming is man made, why are we producing ever more numbers of what they say is the root cause of it?

Good timing!

As posted yesterday at 0939hrs:

They have already said:

http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-...

NPR:
'Should We Be Having Kids In The Age Of Climate Change?’ ‘Maybe we should protect our kids by not having them’

Thanks for the link TB. It wont be long before some F/wit comes on hers suggesting that people who think that human population growth is out of control should kill themselves, whilst they in turn, see no problem whatsoever in them churning out numerous extra children.
But unless they have learned how to churn out children, who don't want to eat, or drink, wear clothes, children who don't want to move further from where they were born than they can walk, children who don't want to be kept warm in winter, or cool in summer, children who don't require pampas nappies, entertainment, TV's, computers, x boxes, DVD`s, cinemas, pop concerts etc, children who wont want a house/car etc of their own, and crucially children who wont ever want x number of children of their own, then each new human will be a resource consuming, emissions producing entity in their own right, and we are adding up 340 thousand plus of these to the planet every single day. Fine,if that is what people want to do, but they cannot then indulge in the hypocrisy of saying we must save the planet for our children, when it is our offspring arriving in their daily hundreds of thousands who represent the threat to the planets climate, if of course one believes in MMGW.

[Kawasicki]

I don't believe in significant AGW.

One of my friends is a true believer.

What is strange is that we both have very similar lifestyles, in terms of carbon dioxide emissions.

Cognitive dissonance.

[mybrainhurts]

Sitting back, having a pint, freezing to death in August, pondering what drives the zealotry of durbster and the roaring elf.

[Jasandjules]

mybrainhurts said:

Sitting back, having a pint, freezing to death in August, pondering what drives the zealotry of durbster and the roaring elf.

You mean, the warmest August in 150 years... Which followed the warmest July in 150 years.. Which of itself shows just how much bull**t they have to spread, they are like pathological liars who can't help themselves now....

[chris watton]

Jasandjules said:

mybrainhurts said:

Sitting back, having a pint, freezing to death in August, pondering what drives the zealotry of durbster and the roaring elf.

You mean, the warmest August in 150 years... Which followed the warmest July in 150 years.. Which of itself shows just how much bull**t they have to spread, they are like pathological liars who can't help themselves now....

As I mentioned in a previous post, we have had five or six days of clear blue sky this year thus far. last year, the year before that, and the year before that were no better.

The USA have had terrible snow coverage over the past few Winters, too.

Mother Nature is making the believers and activist 'scientists' look like complete idiots - and yet their faith is so blind in the face of reality, they refuse to see it (even when they get stuck in the ice in the Antarctic, along with other Green loons, believing their own crap), and still try and convince us that black is actually white - they are becoming a laughing stock!

[turbobloke]

chris watton said:

Jasandjules said:

mybrainhurts said:

Sitting back, having a pint, freezing to death in August, pondering what drives the zealotry of durbster and the roaring elf.

You mean, the warmest August in 150 years... Which followed the warmest July in 150 years.. Which of itself shows just how much bull**t they have to spread, they are like pathological liars who can't help themselves now....

As I mentioned in a previous post, we have had five or six days of clear blue sky this year thus far. last year, the year before that, and the year before that were no better.

The USA have had terrible snow coverage over the past few Winters, too.

Mother Nature is making the believers and activist 'scientists' look like complete idiots - and yet their faith is so blind in the face of reality, they refuse to see it (even when they get stuck in the ice in the Antarctic, along with other Green loons, believing their own crap), and still try and convince us that black is actually white - they are becoming a laughing stock!

A couple of recent headlines to tickle the fancy of weather-climate-manbearpig followers, easily searched and found.

Extremely rare July snow in Germany

Snow “Thing Of The Past” now "Thing Of Summer"



Buy Damart and candles

[Mr GrimNasty]

The NASA 'Arctic panic' dept. has got themselves in a bit of a contradiction with the NASA 'hottest ever' panic dept.

The former have begrudgingly admitted Ice won't be a record low this September - after all their 'expert' opinions saying it would be (although anything could happen yet) because they say, of the unusual cold in June and July. Yet the latter just declared July the warmest month ever citing extraordinary high temp. anomalies around the Arctic!

Oh what a tangled web..............

[LongQ]

Mr GrimNasty said:

The NASA 'Arctic panic' dept. has got themselves in a bit of a contradiction with the NASA 'hottest ever' panic dept.

The former have begrudgingly admitted Ice won't be a record low this September - after all their 'expert' opinions saying it would be (although anything could happen yet) because they say, of the unusual cold in June and July. Yet the latter just declared July the warmest month ever citing extraordinary high temp. anomalies around the Arctic!

Oh what a tangled web..............

Has it not always been like that?

Either way you blame "Climate Change" and the usual suspects and then, at some future point, you can use a previous "statement" (whichever is the closest fit) to justify you claims of "we told you so."

Now I'm not saying such things are planned .... but there would hardly be any good reason to spend time and effort attempting to avoid such apparent confusion would there?

[turbobloke]

Mr GrimNasty said:

The NASA 'Arctic panic' dept. has got themselves in a bit of a contradiction with the NASA 'hottest ever' panic dept.

The former have begrudgingly admitted Ice won't be a record low this September - after all their 'expert' opinions saying it would be (although anything could happen yet) because they say, of the unusual cold in June and July. Yet the latter just declared July the warmest month ever citing extraordinary high temp. anomalies around the Arctic!

Oh what a tangled web..............

In AGW junkscience, self-contradiction is the new self-consistency.

Good ol' NASA. Until they discovered top-down effects, solar irradiance was pooh-poohed in NASA climate circles. Yet "even typical short term variations of 0.1% in incident irradiance exceed all other energy sources" (Greg Kopp of the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics at the University of Colorado).

Hurricanes and tropical storms were going to become less frequent by the end of the century as a result of climate change, NOAA GFDL researchers reported in the journal Nature Geoscience. However, the Kerry Emanuel hurricane team at MIT found that hurricanes are likely to become more frequent as a result of climate change. Where's that double-heads coin when you need it?!

According to David Viner a senior climate scientist then of UEA CRU (2000) snow was supposed to become a 'thing of the past' due to global warming so that 'children just aren't going to know what snow is' but hold the next front page as 'we should expect an increase in heavy snow events' says Jeff Masters of the Union of Concerned Scientists (pass the Prozac).

As a result of global warming the jet streams in both hemispheres have risen in altitude, weakened and shifted toward the poles in keeping with climate model predictions for global warming, according to scientists at the Carnegie Institution in their GRL publication. When the UK suffered storms in recent years (SW, NW, NE) it was widely attributed to global warming even though the jet stream had intensified ('as if engineered' ho ho ho) and moved away from the north pole. One prediction went like this 'A massive storm system moving out of the United States today, which went through Canada yesterday, carries with it the strongest jet stream ever recorded that will cause two super storms in the United Kingdom'. That double-heads coin strikes again.

Again for the UK, global warming was meant to produce warmer, wetter winters 'exactly what we expect winters to be like – warmer and wetter, and dryer and hotter summers' (Wayne Elliott, UKMO, ~2 years before the start of a set of freezing winters and washout summers). Then those severe winters arrived with prolonged sub-zero temperatures and heavy snowfalls.

On a wider basis global warming was going to produce more droughts 'as temperatures rise due to global climate change, more moisture evaporates from land and water, leaving less water behind' (EPA) but no, wait a minute 'we expect more floods and droughts around the world as the planet warms' (Climate Reality Project, no less).

One of the best headlines I've seen said "Climate Clowns Predict Cold Wet Hot Dry Summers". Perfect.

This almost universal act of facing both ways at the same time must have ensured a lot of can't possibly lose global warming predictions ... like below with half a dozen of the best.

1 "By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 million hungry people"

2 "A general warming trend over the North Pole is melting the polar ice cap and may produce an ice-free Arctic Ocean by the year 2000”

3 "Arctic ice…is currently on track to melt sometime in 2008”

4 “By 2010 global temperatures will have increased by 5 deg C”

5 "By 2010 there will be 50 million climate refugees in the world”

6 "New York City will be underwater by 2015"

[Pan Pan Pan]

To use an analogy, the proponents of MMGW generate an image of a bunch of them huddling around the exhaust pipe of a parked car which has its engine running. Every time the driver blips the throttle, they jump back, and run around screaming and shouting doom! doom!, and gradually calm down, and go back to huddling around the exhaust pipe, and moaning about it. Surprisingly however, they seem entirely unable to comprehend the vehicle, and its driver (metaphor for the Earth's human population) which like anything man made, uses up resources to exist and function) and seem only to want to focus no further than the end of the exhaust pipe, nothing else What a strange group of people they are.