Trade Union Anger over Vote Requirement.
Discussion
blindswelledrat said:
arp1 said:
wolves_wanderer said:
Du1point8 said:
wolves_wanderer said:
maybe he enjoys his job and doesn't want to run a business. By the same token why don't all of the people moaning about lazy public sector holding us to ransom go and join the public sector, have a thoroughly relaxing time with zero stress and retire at 35 on a 105% final salary pension?
I said I would happily join if the public sector has a financial sector that needed senior analyst developers/specialists, but they don't, so I can't, In addition Im not going to take a backwards step in technology/skills to have the relaxing job as it would not challenge me.Some people like a non challenging job so they can just put their feet up 9-5, I actually like a challenge, I still do a 9-5, but it tests me to my limits, then beyond and in the 14 years I have been doing the job, no 2 days are ever the same which keeps me on my toes mentally.
Happy to be wrong on this, as I cant seem to find out, but I thought you had to physically go somewhere and vote for the RMT strikes. That being the case, realistically only the hardliners would bother on issues that many see as trivial.
The converse of your argument that " as far I am concerned people who aren't interested enough to vote in anything from ballots" (which is a pretty valid point I agree) is that it can be taken for granted that anyone who does not feel strongly enough about a subject to vote on it, does not feel strongly enough to want to strike over the issue. SO almost by default any non voters should count as "no" votes as in my opinion strike action that hurts millions should only happen when all else fails. If 69+% of people feel indifferent about something it seems absurd it should go ahead. In my opinion of course.
Edited by blindswelledrat on Wednesday 20th May 16:00
OP said:
TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said: "The Conservatives know that this threshold will effectively end the right to strike in the public sector. No democracy elsewhere in the world has this kind of restriction on industrial action. It is a democratic outrage, especially as the Conservatives have opposed allowing secure and secret online balloting - the one measure guaranteed to increase turnouts.
I would be interested to know the justification [if true] for the government opposing online voting as this would seem to be the fairest way of assuring a high turnout and making it easy for people to have their say in private, without the "headbangers" pressuring them. wolves_wanderer said:
I would be interested to know the justification [if true] for the government opposing online voting as this would seem to be the fairest way of assuring a high turnout and making it easy for people to have their say in private, without the "headbangers" pressuring them.
My guess would be manipulation of the results with no hard copy as proof.wolves_wanderer said:
OP said:
TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said: "The Conservatives know that this threshold will effectively end the right to strike in the public sector. No democracy elsewhere in the world has this kind of restriction on industrial action. It is a democratic outrage, especially as the Conservatives have opposed allowing secure and secret online balloting - the one measure guaranteed to increase turnouts.
I would be interested to know the justification [if true] for the government opposing online voting as this would seem to be the fairest way of assuring a high turnout and making it easy for people to have their say in private, without the "headbangers" pressuring them. barryrs said:
wolves_wanderer said:
I would be interested to know the justification [if true] for the government opposing online voting as this would seem to be the fairest way of assuring a high turnout and making it easy for people to have their say in private, without the "headbangers" pressuring them.
My guess would be manipulation of the results with no hard copy as proof.barryrs said:
blindswelledrat said:
I almost agree. I would agree if there was a way they could vote online, for example.
Happy to be wrong on this, as I cant seem to find out, but I thought you had to physically go somewhere and vote for the RMT strikes. That being the case, realistically only the hardliners would bother on issues that many see as trivial.
The converse of your argument that " as far I am concerned people who aren't interested enough to vote in anything from ballots" (which is a pretty valid point I agree) is that it can be taken for granted that anyone who does not feel strongly enough about a subject to vote on it, does not feel strongly enough to want to strike over the issue. SO almost by default any non voters should count as "no" votes as in my opinion strike action that hurts millions should only happen when all else fails. If 69+% of people feel indifferent about something it seems absurd it should go ahead. In my opinion of course.
That was my assumption but it turns out members get sent a ballot paper and a pre-paid envelop to return it.Happy to be wrong on this, as I cant seem to find out, but I thought you had to physically go somewhere and vote for the RMT strikes. That being the case, realistically only the hardliners would bother on issues that many see as trivial.
The converse of your argument that " as far I am concerned people who aren't interested enough to vote in anything from ballots" (which is a pretty valid point I agree) is that it can be taken for granted that anyone who does not feel strongly enough about a subject to vote on it, does not feel strongly enough to want to strike over the issue. SO almost by default any non voters should count as "no" votes as in my opinion strike action that hurts millions should only happen when all else fails. If 69+% of people feel indifferent about something it seems absurd it should go ahead. In my opinion of course.
Edited by blindswelledrat on Wednesday 20th May 16:00
However it appears union members get a lot of junk mail so it "could" possibly get thrown out with that and thus they are unable to vote!!!!!!!
This will usually be accompanied by a letter setting out the basic reasons for the vote from the union via the EC.
You then return this by a set date in a prepaid envelope to the EC who will inform the union of result.
I don't buy the 'it gets lost amongst the junk mail' argument for not voting as it's like not paying your Barclaycard bill as the statement gets lost amongst the junk mail. The letter from the EC comes with no union logos on the envelope, only the EC logo.
98elise said:
To pay someone more you must take that money from someone else.
Personally I did my public sector work in the forces, that's low paid without unions or the right to strike. I chose that career so it didn't even cross my mind that I should moan about the pay.
When money became important to me I left the forces and a new career (not much need for Weapons Engineers outside of the forces). Later when saw that other careers paid even better I changed again.
When I want or need more money I either work longer or harder. That means I've had to learn 3 different trades from the ground up. That sometimes means long hours (60+ hour weeks) and sometimes far from home. I've spent the past 2 years working across the other side of the country living in a hotel 5 days a week.
Going on strike to get more money is simply holding you employer to ransom. Its easy in the public sector where the employer has the nations wallets to empty. That isn't right.
Well done you.Personally I did my public sector work in the forces, that's low paid without unions or the right to strike. I chose that career so it didn't even cross my mind that I should moan about the pay.
When money became important to me I left the forces and a new career (not much need for Weapons Engineers outside of the forces). Later when saw that other careers paid even better I changed again.
When I want or need more money I either work longer or harder. That means I've had to learn 3 different trades from the ground up. That sometimes means long hours (60+ hour weeks) and sometimes far from home. I've spent the past 2 years working across the other side of the country living in a hotel 5 days a week.
Going on strike to get more money is simply holding you employer to ransom. Its easy in the public sector where the employer has the nations wallets to empty. That isn't right.
What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Du1point8 said:
Im in Finance, what excellent perks do you talk of?
My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Oh poor you!My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Hackney said:
Du1point8 said:
Im in Finance, what excellent perks do you talk of?
My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Oh poor you!My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
If only I could get on one of the free NHS dentists that I pay for, instead of being refused as they are full and then needing to go private instead.
Hackney said:
Well done you.
What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Then surely they do their homework on what the job is. And the pay depending on experiance then comes as no suprise.What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
If the job turns out harder / easier than they felt thats unfortunatley life.
If they find the bureaucracy and other aspects frustrating, thats not unlike many peoples jobs in both public and private sector.
I agree with the origanal poster you replied to, if the job no longer works for you move on. Regardless of how much you wanted to be in a particular career.
RYH64E said:
Hackney said:
Well done you.
What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Then surely they can continue to be 'just' a nurse?What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Du1point8 said:
Hackney said:
Du1point8 said:
Im in Finance, what excellent perks do you talk of?
My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Oh poor you!My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
If only I could get on one of the free NHS dentists that I pay for, instead of being refused as they are full and then needing to go private instead.
Should be able to earn £150k - £180k year without to much of a problem, go into rebuilds and cosmetics and soar. No wonder NHS dentists are thin on the ground. Next!
randlemarcus said:
RYH64E said:
Hackney said:
Well done you.
What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Then surely they can continue to be 'just' a nurse?What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
randlemarcus said:
RYH64E said:
Hackney said:
Well done you.
What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
Then surely they can continue to be 'just' a nurse?What if someone "just" wants to be a nurse?
I do have some sympathy with nurses; they do indeed have to commit to a career that result in skills that are not easily transferable. There are of course opportunities in private healthcare, but I imagine the NHS is the only option for many. They do of course know what the pay is like when they they join, but the cost of living does increase. If wages do not keep up, or they find their terms and conditions are being altered, they have every right to complain.
The trouble with the disputes over the last few years is they were getting upset over something that was nowhere near as bad as what we had to suffer in the private sector. I was seeing people being made redundant left right and centre, and many were given the choice of either taking a pay cut (25% was not unusual) or losing their job. I was made redundant in 2013, and fortunately walked into a better paid job, but ever since Northern Rock went tits-up, the message from the directors has always been 'there will be no pay increases this year'.
I support the right of public sector workers to take industrial action, but it whether I support a particular action depends on the circumstances, and I don't support the strikes in recent years.
Ganglandboss said:
Out of interest, what does a nurse actually earn? We are told all the time (usually by people with a left wing agenda) that they earn a pittance. I know a few nurses; I wouldn't be so vulgar as to ask them what they earn, but none of them seem to do so bad.
Agenda for Change band 5 has 8 increments from 21 692 to 28 180, it takes a minimum of 7 years to reach the top of these increments as other than theaccelrated first increment on completion of preceptorship there is no provision for accelerated incremental progression this exlcudes unsocial hours payemtns , however unless you work a reall onerous rota (ie. more than alternate weekends at at least one full week of nights a month) this is unlike to add up to much more than 25 % of basic
the promotion pyramid in many settings is VERY narrow and in other settings is just pretty narrow ...
band 6 may be easy to get depnding on speciality and trust , but band 7 and above is very narrow pyramid
Ganglandboss said:
I do have some sympathy with nurses; they do indeed have to commit to a career that result in skills that are not easily transferable. There are of course opportunities in private healthcare, but I imagine the NHS is the only option for many. They do of course know what the pay is like when they they join, but the cost of living does increase. If wages do not keep up, or they find their terms and conditions are being altered, they have every right to complain.
Wages in the private sector ( especially for care homes with Nursing - which are providing NHS funded care when it comes to the 'nursing aspects' and if there are 'intermediate care' beds ) are no better and in many cases are worse - trading a slightly higher basic for no shift allowances and worse annual leave , pretty similar pattern with private hospitals and roles like the hate ATOS / CAPITA roles for the WCA sell themselves on flexible hours or being a fixed 9-5 monday to friday ... mph1977 said:
Ganglandboss said:
Out of interest, what does a nurse actually earn? We are told all the time (usually by people with a left wing agenda) that they earn a pittance. I know a few nurses; I wouldn't be so vulgar as to ask them what they earn, but none of them seem to do so bad.
Agenda for Change band 5 has 8 increments from 21 692 to 28 180, it takes a minimum of 7 years to reach the top of these increments as other than theaccelrated first increment on completion of preceptorship there is no provision for accelerated incremental progression this exlcudes unsocial hours payemtns , however unless you work a reall onerous rota (ie. more than alternate weekends at at least one full week of nights a month) this is unlike to add up to much more than 25 % of basic
the promotion pyramid in many settings is VERY narrow and in other settings is just pretty narrow ...
band 6 may be easy to get depnding on speciality and trust , but band 7 and above is very narrow pyramid
Ganglandboss said:
I do have some sympathy with nurses; they do indeed have to commit to a career that result in skills that are not easily transferable. There are of course opportunities in private healthcare, but I imagine the NHS is the only option for many. They do of course know what the pay is like when they they join, but the cost of living does increase. If wages do not keep up, or they find their terms and conditions are being altered, they have every right to complain.
Wages in the private sector ( especially for care homes with Nursing - which are providing NHS funded care when it comes to the 'nursing aspects' and if there are 'intermediate care' beds ) are no better and in many cases are worse - trading a slightly higher basic for no shift allowances and worse annual leave , pretty similar pattern with private hospitals and roles like the hate ATOS / CAPITA roles for the WCA sell themselves on flexible hours or being a fixed 9-5 monday to friday ... I understand your second point about the conditions in the private sector, and it backs up what I am saying. I was fortunate that I was taught a trade that I could take away and earn good money with in the private sector, but nurses (and a lot of other public sector workers) don't have that option.
Hackney said:
Oh poor you!
Given the context in which the sentence you quoted was placed, your comment is completely unnecessary and, frankly, makes you look a dick. I appreciate it's a look you're working hard on to refine, so thought I'd let you know your effort hasn't gone to waste.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff