Trade Union Anger over Vote Requirement.

Trade Union Anger over Vote Requirement.

Author
Discussion

Ganglandboss

8,294 posts

202 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
crankedup said:
Both democratic oganisations that REPRESENT those that elected them. Unions for workers and Government for general public. Remind me how many in terms of % of the population turned out to vote for the Tories?


With a strike, you are changing the status quo, which at the time of the ballot is everybody working. This state will continue until somebody interferes. If a union ballots its members as to whether they wish to strike, the result may come back something like this:

Yes - 25%
No - 20%
Did not vote - 55%

The yes voters have won the ballot, but the fact remains that 75% have not expressed their wish to strike.

With an election, there is an act of parliament that says there must be a general election every five years. Before the election, parliament is dissolved and all those MPs have to stand for re-election if they wish to retain their seat. Most constituencies will have a choice of approximately four or five candidates, so what if one candidate gets 40% of the vote and three others get 20% each? Imagine 50% couldn't be arsed, so that now becomes 20% to the winner, 10% each to the remaining three and 50% to the couldn't give a f**k party. The one with 40% is returned as MP, 80& did not vote for him. Who do you think should be returned then?

Those MPs then go and sit in a big room, where each party is represented by the number of MPs returned. In the last election, the Conservatives account for more than 50%, therefore they have the largest share and get to govern.

The fact remains that more people went into the polling booth and made a mark with their stubby pencil against the Conservative candidate than any other individual party, so on this basis, who do you think should be in power?


crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
Ganglandboss said:
crankedup said:
Both democratic oganisations that REPRESENT those that elected them. Unions for workers and Government for general public. Remind me how many in terms of % of the population turned out to vote for the Tories?


With a strike, you are changing the status quo, which at the time of the ballot is everybody working. This state will continue until somebody interferes. If a union ballots its members as to whether they wish to strike, the result may come back something like this:

Yes - 25%
No - 20%
Did not vote - 55%

The yes voters have won the ballot, but the fact remains that 75% have not expressed their wish to strike.

With an election, there is an act of parliament that says there must be a general election every five years. Before the election, parliament is dissolved and all those MPs have to stand for re-election if they wish to retain their seat. Most constituencies will have a choice of approximately four or five candidates, so what if one candidate gets 40% of the vote and three others get 20% each? Imagine 50% couldn't be arsed, so that now becomes 20% to the winner, 10% each to the remaining three and 50% to the couldn't give a f**k party. The one with 40% is returned as MP, 80& did not vote for him. Who do you think should be returned then?

Those MPs then go and sit in a big room, where each party is represented by the number of MPs returned. In the last election, the Conservatives account for more than 50%, therefore they have the largest share and get to govern.

The fact remains that more people went into the polling booth and made a mark with their stubby pencil against the Conservative candidate than any other individual party, so on this basis, who do you think should be in power?
I merely point out how our democracy works so far as voting is concerned. Those basic facts are not changed.
To answer your question, I think the Tories won the G.E. fair and square. But I would rather have seen a continuing coalition with the Lib-Dems, hey ho, thats life.

Ganglandboss

8,294 posts

202 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
crankedup said:
Ganglandboss said:
crankedup said:
Both democratic oganisations that REPRESENT those that elected them. Unions for workers and Government for general public. Remind me how many in terms of % of the population turned out to vote for the Tories?


With a strike, you are changing the status quo, which at the time of the ballot is everybody working. This state will continue until somebody interferes. If a union ballots its members as to whether they wish to strike, the result may come back something like this:

Yes - 25%
No - 20%
Did not vote - 55%

The yes voters have won the ballot, but the fact remains that 75% have not expressed their wish to strike.

With an election, there is an act of parliament that says there must be a general election every five years. Before the election, parliament is dissolved and all those MPs have to stand for re-election if they wish to retain their seat. Most constituencies will have a choice of approximately four or five candidates, so what if one candidate gets 40% of the vote and three others get 20% each? Imagine 50% couldn't be arsed, so that now becomes 20% to the winner, 10% each to the remaining three and 50% to the couldn't give a f**k party. The one with 40% is returned as MP, 80& did not vote for him. Who do you think should be returned then?

Those MPs then go and sit in a big room, where each party is represented by the number of MPs returned. In the last election, the Conservatives account for more than 50%, therefore they have the largest share and get to govern.

The fact remains that more people went into the polling booth and made a mark with their stubby pencil against the Conservative candidate than any other individual party, so on this basis, who do you think should be in power?
I merely point out how our democracy works so far as voting is concerned. Those basic facts are not changed.
To answer your question, I think the Tories won the G.E. fair and square. But I would rather have seen a continuing coalition with the Lib-Dems, hey ho, thats life.
So we may slightly agree here (I am glad the Conservatives have a majority), but the fact still remains the general election and a strike ballot are not the same thing.

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
London424 said:
crankedup said:
London424 said:
crankedup said:
arp1 said:
We need to remember that in this case it is not public vs private sector (which I have been sucked into debating) but the vile attempts at the government foisting upon the trade unions such conditions. I really do hope that if they do come into force that it will lead to less apathy within the unions and get members to start attending meetings again and actually voting. It's not difficult.
Agreed, the Tories simply cannot help themselves but make every effort to bang the last nail into the Unions coffin, it's their default policy. 'All in it together' never sounded so hollow.
Is it really that onerous to stick an 'X' on a piece of paper and return it in an already stamped envelope?
What has that got to do with anything? The question is one of democratic Rights, if I choose to place a vote and have been invited to do so then I exercise my Right or not as I please to do. I think in most situations it's called abstention, perfectly acceptable from the Boardroom to General Elections to Unions Workers, unless the Union workers are being discriminated against as this would appear to be the case.
And the government are saying that when a 50:50 choice is on the table a certain percentage of the membership have to register a vote. Doesn't sound 'undemocratic' to me.
So the Government will not recognise abstentions, yet that is perfectly acceptable in every other situation that requires a democratic vote to pass a judgement. If its good enough in the Boardroom it should be good enough on the shop floor, sounds reasonable and balanced to me.

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
Ganglandboss said:
crankedup said:
Ganglandboss said:
crankedup said:
Both democratic oganisations that REPRESENT those that elected them. Unions for workers and Government for general public. Remind me how many in terms of % of the population turned out to vote for the Tories?


With a strike, you are changing the status quo, which at the time of the ballot is everybody working. This state will continue until somebody interferes. If a union ballots its members as to whether they wish to strike, the result may come back something like this:

Yes - 25%
No - 20%
Did not vote - 55%

The yes voters have won the ballot, but the fact remains that 75% have not expressed their wish to strike.

With an election, there is an act of parliament that says there must be a general election every five years. Before the election, parliament is dissolved and all those MPs have to stand for re-election if they wish to retain their seat. Most constituencies will have a choice of approximately four or five candidates, so what if one candidate gets 40% of the vote and three others get 20% each? Imagine 50% couldn't be arsed, so that now becomes 20% to the winner, 10% each to the remaining three and 50% to the couldn't give a f**k party. The one with 40% is returned as MP, 80& did not vote for him. Who do you think should be returned then?

Those MPs then go and sit in a big room, where each party is represented by the number of MPs returned. In the last election, the Conservatives account for more than 50%, therefore they have the largest share and get to govern.

The fact remains that more people went into the polling booth and made a mark with their stubby pencil against the Conservative candidate than any other individual party, so on this basis, who do you think should be in power?
I merely point out how our democracy works so far as voting is concerned. Those basic facts are not changed.
To answer your question, I think the Tories won the G.E. fair and square. But I would rather have seen a continuing coalition with the Lib-Dems, hey ho, thats life.
So we may slightly agree here (I am glad the Conservatives have a majority), but the fact still remains the general election and a strike ballot are not the same thing.
So how do you judge the current votes system amongst the shareholders voting? they obviously allow any number of abstentions.

UI agree the G.E. and a strike ballot are not the same thing and perhaps that was a bad example I used. But the fundamentals are the same.

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
Ganglandboss said:
With a strike, you are changing the status quo, which at the time of the ballot is everybody working. This state will continue until somebody interferes. If a union ballots its members as to whether they wish to strike, the result may come back something like this:

<snip>

With an election, there is an act of parliament that says there must be a general election every five years. Before the election, parliament is dissolved

<snip>
Most of your post actually gives weight to the similarities, but I guess you don't see it that way. The point can be argued, but if a multiple choice election won't do it for you, then for the sake of simplicity, consider passing a Bill in the House or the EU Parliament. Or the Scottish independence vote. Or the upcoming EU referendum. All are yes/no decisions with a maintainable status quo, some via representative, some direct. Our democracy is built around them, and it's apparently good enough most of the time.

Of course, all the unions really ought to do is put a third option on the ballot - 'wibble' - and then it'll be one step closer to the GE smile

barryrs

4,376 posts

222 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
crankedup said:
So the Government will not recognise abstentions, yet that is perfectly acceptable in every other situation that requires a democratic vote to pass a judgement. If its good enough in the Boardroom it should be good enough on the shop floor, sounds reasonable and balanced to me.
I'm simply amazed that workers are so uninterested in their own pay and conditions that they cant be bothered to not vote in such large numbers.

If a large percentage of a workforce simply dont care enough to make a simple yes or no decision then it seems perfectly reasonable that they should be prevented from taking strike action.

Hackney

6,811 posts

207 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Hackney said:
Du1point8 said:
Im in Finance, what excellent perks do you talk of?

My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Oh poor you!
iphonedyou said:
Hackney said:
Oh poor you!
Given the context in which the sentence you quoted was placed, your comment is completely unnecessary and, frankly, makes you look a dick. I appreciate it's a look you're working hard on to refine, so thought I'd let you know your effort hasn't gone to waste.
Context? A list of perks of employment including private healthcare with the exclusion of "cosmetic" work. I'm sure that vast swathes of people in this country, indeed across the globe are at this minute formulating a protest at the appalling conditions Dulpoint8 has to work under.

I bet you've been working on that insult for weeks haven't you. Well done. Very well done.

Du1point8

21,604 posts

191 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Hackney said:
Hackney said:
Du1point8 said:
Im in Finance, what excellent perks do you talk of?

My pension is not one.
Pay rises only occur when I prove to be excellent at my job, we don't get a pay rise if you just turn up and do your job, its about moving up the career ladder.
I only get 22 days holiday a year.
I do get private health care, but this doesnt include a vast amount that is classed as cosmetic.
I have never needed to use sick pay as Im rarely ever off ill.
Bonus is a discretionary and not a great amount, but its linked to goals I have to achieve, don't get the goal through no fault of my own, then I don't get the bonus.
Oh poor you!
iphonedyou said:
Hackney said:
Oh poor you!
Given the context in which the sentence you quoted was placed, your comment is completely unnecessary and, frankly, makes you look a dick. I appreciate it's a look you're working hard on to refine, so thought I'd let you know your effort hasn't gone to waste.
Context? A list of perks of employment including private healthcare with the exclusion of "cosmetic" work. I'm sure that vast swathes of people in this country, indeed across the globe are at this minute formulating a protest at the appalling conditions Dulpoint8 has to work under.

I bet you've been working on that insult for weeks haven't you. Well done. Very well done.
cosmetic work includes cracking a tooth unexpectantly and it needing sorting asap or waiting 4 months and hoping it doesnt get worse.

Or hows about a little lump on my shoulder called nodular fasciitis, that I can't get sorted fast enough on NHS and Im now needing to pay for (its generally cosmetic) just in case it turns out to worse than it is.

Both are not exactly botox are they?

arp1

583 posts

126 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Well good for you getting some sort of private health care. Me, in the public sector, doesn't!

Du1point8

21,604 posts

191 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
arp1 said:
Well good for you getting some sort of private health care. Me, in the public sector, doesn't!
Im not you idiot... Im pretty certain Private health care is obtainable as my mother gets it (not a high paid ex).

I have to pay to get it sorted as its not deemed a health risk on NHS despite constant pain.... Private doesnt cover it as its cosmetic and not life threatening (yet), So I have to pay, yet some $%^£ from Leeds can get a boob job as its wrecking her confidence for free.... hmmm