Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
Mr Will said:
Yet your suggested solution is that cyclists just need to get better at dodging?
In fairness he didn't say thatHow can we get away from someone using strawman principles whether delibertae or not
i.e, where one person says another has said something they havent
then argues against what they've said even though they havent
to produce an argument which they believe is opposite to what the person said
but is actually pretty close to what they did say
croyde said:
Did anyone see "An Hour to Save Your Life" on BBC2 last night?
One of the cases was the the German girl who got killed by a Tipper Truck at Ludgate Circus last year. If you don't want to see the result of cyclist getting run over by a lorry, don't watch it.
Very sobering and just shows how vulnerable cyclists are. Watching the paramedics and the trauma team battling to save her brought me to tears. The paramedic on the scene even resorted to open heart massage in a desperate bid to keep her alive.
The poor girl lived another 3 days but never regained consciousness.
Drivers and riders, just be careful out there.
Cheers, just caught that on iPlayer. Incredible work by the paramedics/doctors. One of the cases was the the German girl who got killed by a Tipper Truck at Ludgate Circus last year. If you don't want to see the result of cyclist getting run over by a lorry, don't watch it.
Very sobering and just shows how vulnerable cyclists are. Watching the paramedics and the trauma team battling to save her brought me to tears. The paramedic on the scene even resorted to open heart massage in a desperate bid to keep her alive.
The poor girl lived another 3 days but never regained consciousness.
Drivers and riders, just be careful out there.
Mr Will said:
It's nothing to do with righteousness. I ride defensively to protect myself from others mistakes but unfortunately these mistakes occur with exceptional regularity. If I can make it the 5 miles to work without someone doing something stupid that could potentially endanger me then it's a rare occurrence.
My issue is one of focus. You have a group that are supposedly trained, licensed and insured who are regularly killing and injuring high numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and other motorists. They are judged to be at fault in the majority of collisions. Yet your suggested solution is that cyclists just need to get better at dodging?
If you think that's the most effective solution to this problem then I suggest you think again.
(just to be extremely clear - I am pro-cycle training and I acknowledge that cyclists need to take responsibility for their safety and actions but when people try to spout "It's all the cyclists fault" then I will do my best to expose it as the bulls
t that it is)
Just out of interest, what is riding defensively?My issue is one of focus. You have a group that are supposedly trained, licensed and insured who are regularly killing and injuring high numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and other motorists. They are judged to be at fault in the majority of collisions. Yet your suggested solution is that cyclists just need to get better at dodging?
If you think that's the most effective solution to this problem then I suggest you think again.
(just to be extremely clear - I am pro-cycle training and I acknowledge that cyclists need to take responsibility for their safety and actions but when people try to spout "It's all the cyclists fault" then I will do my best to expose it as the bulls
t that it is)I'm not having a go, I'm just curious as to what it involves.
wormus said:
....because there is a perception on here that some cyclists don't help themselves when it comes to road safety.
But that's all it is: a perception.The reality is that it's drivers (the ones who everyone on here incessantly points out are the licensed and tested road users!) who are the ones most often at fault in collisions. So how about we deal with the terrible standard of driving by the ones actually capable of inflicting significant injury and death first?
wormus said:
....because there is a perception on here that some cyclists don't help themselves when it comes to road safety. No point moaning that as a cyclist you get hurt when you drive up the inside of an HGV that probably hasn't seen you or go through red lights. It would be like me filtering at 70mph between lanes of stationary traffic on my motorbike then complaining that I get knocked off by somebody swapping lanes. To the law I would be at fault for riding like a dick and the same should apply to cyclists who don't take responsibility for their own safety.
I also agree that motorists should look out for and try wherever possible not to collide with other road users.
True, but they are rarely the cause of these collisions. It's like someone pulling out and SIMDSYing you while you're minding your own business doing 30 in a 30 zone and everyone chiming in with "Well I saw a motorbike filtering on the M1 at 100mph the other day, so it must be your fault".I also agree that motorists should look out for and try wherever possible not to collide with other road users.
If a cyclist is riding badly then by all means judge them for it but please don't assume it without evidence.
A slight aside but the left turning trucks issue is primarily one of road design. They put the stupid little ASL feeder cycle lanes alongside places where large vehicles will be stopped and then get surprised when inexperienced cyclists use them. Is it really their fault for cycling down the lane set aside for exactly that purpose? The you've got the truck driver. He's trying to get a large and dangerous vehicle with enormous bilndspots through a congested city. He gets to a red light and has to stop alongside one of these (so-called) cycle lanes but what's he supposed to do next? He can't exactly get out and check! It's not his fault either - I don't blame either party, it is just a case of terrible, terrible road design.
Ghibli said:
Mr Will said:
It's nothing to do with righteousness. I ride defensively to protect myself from others mistakes but unfortunately these mistakes occur with exceptional regularity. If I can make it the 5 miles to work without someone doing something stupid that could potentially endanger me then it's a rare occurrence.
My issue is one of focus. You have a group that are supposedly trained, licensed and insured who are regularly killing and injuring high numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and other motorists. They are judged to be at fault in the majority of collisions. Yet your suggested solution is that cyclists just need to get better at dodging?
If you think that's the most effective solution to this problem then I suggest you think again.
(just to be extremely clear - I am pro-cycle training and I acknowledge that cyclists need to take responsibility for their safety and actions but when people try to spout "It's all the cyclists fault" then I will do my best to expose it as the bullst that it is)
Just out of interest, what is riding defensively?My issue is one of focus. You have a group that are supposedly trained, licensed and insured who are regularly killing and injuring high numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and other motorists. They are judged to be at fault in the majority of collisions. Yet your suggested solution is that cyclists just need to get better at dodging?
If you think that's the most effective solution to this problem then I suggest you think again.
(just to be extremely clear - I am pro-cycle training and I acknowledge that cyclists need to take responsibility for their safety and actions but when people try to spout "It's all the cyclists fault" then I will do my best to expose it as the bulls
t that it is)I'm not having a go, I'm just curious as to what it involves.
k, trying to establish eye contact with drivers to remind them you're a human, that sort of thing.dick_turpin said:
But that's all it is: a perception.
The reality is that it's drivers (the ones who everyone on here incessantly points out are the licensed and tested road users!) who are the ones most often at fault in collisions. So how about we deal with the terrible standard of driving by the ones actually capable of inflicting significant injury and death first?
Rubbish. I witnessed 2 cyclists going through several red signals this morning in Watford (I was following on my motorbike). They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only. Didn't see any other vehicle do the same. The reality is that it's drivers (the ones who everyone on here incessantly points out are the licensed and tested road users!) who are the ones most often at fault in collisions. So how about we deal with the terrible standard of driving by the ones actually capable of inflicting significant injury and death first?
Ghibli said:
Just out of interest, what is riding defensively?
I'm not having a go, I'm just curious as to what it involves.
Mainly a case of road positioning to maximise visibility (both seeing and being seen), discouraging other road users from doing dangerous things (such as attempting an overtake on a blind bend) and a general awareness that everyone else is an idiot, so you need plan A, B and C in hand at all times (for when they inevitably do something stupid).I'm not having a go, I'm just curious as to what it involves.
Mr Will said:
wormus said:
....because there is a perception on here that some cyclists don't help themselves when it comes to road safety. No point moaning that as a cyclist you get hurt when you drive up the inside of an HGV that probably hasn't seen you or go through red lights. It would be like me filtering at 70mph between lanes of stationary traffic on my motorbike then complaining that I get knocked off by somebody swapping lanes. To the law I would be at fault for riding like a dick and the same should apply to cyclists who don't take responsibility for their own safety.
I also agree that motorists should look out for and try wherever possible not to collide with other road users.
True, but they are rarely the cause of these collisions. It's like someone pulling out and SIMDSYing you while you're minding your own business doing 30 in a 30 zone and everyone chiming in with "Well I saw a motorbike filtering on the M1 at 100mph the other day, so it must be your fault".I also agree that motorists should look out for and try wherever possible not to collide with other road users.
If a cyclist is riding badly then by all means judge them for it but please don't assume it without evidence.
A slight aside but the left turning trucks issue is primarily one of road design. They put the stupid little ASL feeder cycle lanes alongside places where large vehicles will be stopped and then get surprised when inexperienced cyclists use them. Is it really their fault for cycling down the lane set aside for exactly that purpose? The you've got the truck driver. He's trying to get a large and dangerous vehicle with enormous bilndspots through a congested city. He gets to a red light and has to stop alongside one of these (so-called) cycle lanes but what's he supposed to do next? He can't exactly get out and check! It's not his fault either - I don't blame either party, it is just a case of terrible, terrible road design.
1. It's almost always construction lorries involved.
2. It's often slower, less confident riders (women proportionately) involved.
All the other lorries and the other 99% of cyclists seem to avoid these dangerous situations.
wormus said:
Rubbish. I witnessed 2 cyclists going through several red signals this morning in Watford (I was following on my motorbike). They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only. Didn't see any other vehicle do the same.
I witnessed a van go through a red that had been red for approx 2 seconds, green man just came on, he nearly hit a ped who was not paying that much attention. This at the bottom of Kingsway in London, had someone not tapped her shoulder she'd have been killed.wormus said:
They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only.
Assuming it was one of the rare ones that doesn't allow bicycles, what do you think would have happened if they hadn't used it? There would be at least three threads on here from the apoplectically angry drivers they'd hold up!oyster said:
More than road design surely.
1. It's almost always construction lorries involved.
2. It's often slower, less confident riders (women proportionately) involved.
All the other lorries and the other 99% of cyclists seem to avoid these dangerous situations.
Construction lorries offer the most dangerous design on the roads and yes, they could be improved. As could the working conditions for the drivers.1. It's almost always construction lorries involved.
2. It's often slower, less confident riders (women proportionately) involved.
All the other lorries and the other 99% of cyclists seem to avoid these dangerous situations.
Faster riders will out run the truck and experienced riders know not to be there, so it's always going to be the most vulnerable that get in to (this kind of) trouble. They tend to be the most law-abiding and show the least risk-taking behaviour though, so in this case I think it is fair to lay the blame on the road design.
okgo said:
wormus said:
Rubbish. I witnessed 2 cyclists going through several red signals this morning in Watford (I was following on my motorbike). They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only. Didn't see any other vehicle do the same.
I witnessed a van go through a red that had been red for approx 2 seconds, green man just came on, he nearly hit a ped who was not paying that much attention. This at the bottom of Kingsway in London, had someone not tapped her shoulder she'd have been killed.wormus said:
dick_turpin said:
But that's all it is: a perception.
The reality is that it's drivers (the ones who everyone on here incessantly points out are the licensed and tested road users!) who are the ones most often at fault in collisions. So how about we deal with the terrible standard of driving by the ones actually capable of inflicting significant injury and death first?
Rubbish. I witnessed 2 cyclists going through several red signals this morning in Watford (I was following on my motorbike). They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only. Didn't see any other vehicle do the same. The reality is that it's drivers (the ones who everyone on here incessantly points out are the licensed and tested road users!) who are the ones most often at fault in collisions. So how about we deal with the terrible standard of driving by the ones actually capable of inflicting significant injury and death first?
2. The behaviour above might not have been risky to the cyclists (I don't know), but almost certainly wasn't posing a risk to anyone else.
3. I see drivers running reds just as much as cyclists, so it's clear that licencing and testing are not the panacea they are portrayed as
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
okgo said:
wormus said:
Rubbish. I witnessed 2 cyclists going through several red signals this morning in Watford (I was following on my motorbike). They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only. Didn't see any other vehicle do the same.
I witnessed a van go through a red that had been red for approx 2 seconds, green man just came on, he nearly hit a ped who was not paying that much attention. This at the bottom of Kingsway in London, had someone not tapped her shoulder she'd have been killed.Has any one got any stuff that actually leads to 'another cyslist dies in London'
rather than someone cycled in bus lane and nothing happened
van drove through a red light and nothing happened here either
Mr Will said:
wormus said:
They also rode down the bus lane which is marked for buses only.
Assuming it was one of the rare ones that doesn't allow bicycles, what do you think would have happened if they hadn't used it? There would be at least three threads on here from the apoplectically angry drivers they'd hold up!The riding down a bus lane thing, though? You can f
k right off. Have you ever tried riding in an 'all traffic' lane alongside an empty bus lane? I have. It's counter-intuitive and riles drivers up no end. You'll get tooted at, sworn at, and sometimes driven at, by retards who simply see an empty space into which the cyclist could move to get out of their way. Then when a bus or taxi comes along, you end up in the precarious, narrow space between two motor vehicles competing to be first to the spot where the bus lane merges with the main running lane, and as they approach the merge point they just keep getting closer and closer. Thanks all the same, but I'll take my chances on a potential fist-fight with some fat slobbering cabbie than sit out in a busy traffic lane that every driver in it wants you out of. At least if I'm 'taking the lane' in the bus lane I have some degree of influence over where and when the bus/cab drivers get to overtake me. I consider it to be basic defensive riding.Mr Will said:
Most of us try, however roads (and cycle lanes) should be designed to minimise the danger people face. At the moment that couldn't be further from the truth.
This was my point - evidence would suggest the absolute opposite, hence my observations.This isn't about cycling enthusiasts or proficient cyclists. They make up a small % of the cycling population in London.
This is about making sure that the average (and below) cyclist is made aware of what is safe, what is stupid, and the potential for consequences. I just don't believe that cyclist-related law is communicated or enforced anywhere near what it might be, and London's roads are a worse place for it.
Changing the road costs £bns and takes years. Communication and enforcement campaigns can be mobilised quickly, and are much more cost-effective.
croyde said:
Did anyone see "An Hour to Save Your Life" on BBC2 last night?
One of the cases was the the German girl who got killed by a Tipper Truck at Ludgate Circus last year. If you don't want to see the result of cyclist getting run over by a lorry, don't watch it.
My wife, also an enthusiastic and committed London cyclist, was on a bus waiting across the junction, and was unfortunate to watch it all happen.One of the cases was the the German girl who got killed by a Tipper Truck at Ludgate Circus last year. If you don't want to see the result of cyclist getting run over by a lorry, don't watch it.
As an understandably upsetting experience, it took quite a while for her to get back on her bike. We (and many others) went and put flowers on the lamppost, as is the done thing in the cycling community.
Her assessment of the situation was: "how stupid should you be to put yourself and your bike there?". Sadly a not-uncommon theme in the recent deaths.
Dave200 said:
This is about making sure that the average (and below) cyclist is made aware of what is safe, what is stupid, and the potential for consequences. I just don't believe that cyclist-related law is communicated or enforced anywhere near what it might be, and London's roads are a worse place for it.
I would say exactly the same thing about the average driver.Dave200 said:
Mr Will said:
Most of us try, however roads (and cycle lanes) should be designed to minimise the danger people face. At the moment that couldn't be further from the truth.
This was my point - evidence would suggest the absolute opposite, hence my observations.Because the actual data shows that it is the driver who is most often at sole fault in a collision.
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