Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
ZX10R NIN said:
Yes it does but as stated earlier I'm talking about people who are commuting into London being made to take some form of proper training made to wear Helmets & have some form of Insurance. Accidents happen I've been knocked off of my motorbike by a cyclist jumping a red light, I've seen cyclists ride into cars Vans etc also it means as a cyclist you have legal cover if you're injured & can pursue a claim with no hassle.
Haulage Companies Bus Companies have been made to spend 1000's on extra training & equipment for their Vehicles so now I think the time has come for cyclists to put themselves out & accept some regulation.
Most people can ride a push bike but riding one competently in the city is a completely different thing.
I saw a guy knocked off his motorbike by a pedestrian who ran out without looking. He was carted away in an ambulance in a very sorry state. Insurance, training and high-viz for pedestrians as well?Haulage Companies Bus Companies have been made to spend 1000's on extra training & equipment for their Vehicles so now I think the time has come for cyclists to put themselves out & accept some regulation.
Most people can ride a push bike but riding one competently in the city is a completely different thing.
Despite what some on here spout, cyclists cause a negligible amount of damage or injuries. A cyclist can buy 3rd party insurance for less than £15 per year and the insurance company makes money on that, even after all the overheads involved.
Considering the Police estimate that 10% of London drivers are uninsured, I'd suggest that they are a far more important thing to worry about.
ZX10R NIN said:
Yes it does but as stated earlier I'm talking about people who are commuting into London being made to take some form of proper training made to wear Helmets & have some form of Insurance. Accidents happen I've been knocked off of my motorbike by a cyclist jumping a red light, I've seen cyclists ride into cars Vans etc also it means as a cyclist you have legal cover if you're injured & can pursue a claim with no hassle.
Haulage Companies Bus Companies have been made to spend 1000's on extra training & equipment for their Vehicles so now I think the time has come for cyclists to put themselves out & accept some regulation.
Most people can ride a push bike but riding one competently in the city is a completely different thing.
Haulage Companies Bus Companies have been made to spend 1000's on extra training & equipment for their Vehicles so now I think the time has come for cyclists to put themselves out & accept some regulation.
Most people can ride a push bike but riding one competently in the city is a completely different thing.
the internet said:
According to the latest research, motorcyclist’s in the UK are between 38 and 40 times more likely to die in an accident on the road than standard car drivers; this is shocking news when you consider that motorcyclists only comprise of 1% of the overall road traffic,
Perhaps we should focus on the most dangerous forms of transport in respect to training....
There are the numbers. Motorcycles, huge risk, time for bikers to accept it plus pay more insurance and take on routine training every year. I'm sure you agree?
Digby said:
Ask the scattering pedestrians who I regularly see grabbing arms to avoid people being hit or maybe the car, truck and bus drivers (and other cyclists!) who have to take action as a result.
For me to give you a more precise answer, I would have had to witness motorised vehicles jumping red lights ten, twenty or thirty + seconds after they have changed.During my near thirty years of motoring, I think I have seen that happen three or four times (often followed my a police car).Yet I can see this happen with dozens of cyclists at any random set of lights, on any random road, during a five minute period.
Perhaps my suggestion explains why I saw police officers jumping out from behind a tree not so long ago as they forced cyclists to stop due to completely ignoring the lights.Even as they stood getting a grilling, dozens more sailed on through.Wash, rinse, repeat.It was quite entertaining and went on for over an hour.
Anyway, yes, given the above, they undeniably pose more of a problem.
Well given that RLJing motorists KSI hundreds of pedestrians a year, and RLJing cyclists KSI a handful, I'd say you're obviously talking rubbish.For me to give you a more precise answer, I would have had to witness motorised vehicles jumping red lights ten, twenty or thirty + seconds after they have changed.During my near thirty years of motoring, I think I have seen that happen three or four times (often followed my a police car).Yet I can see this happen with dozens of cyclists at any random set of lights, on any random road, during a five minute period.
Perhaps my suggestion explains why I saw police officers jumping out from behind a tree not so long ago as they forced cyclists to stop due to completely ignoring the lights.Even as they stood getting a grilling, dozens more sailed on through.Wash, rinse, repeat.It was quite entertaining and went on for over an hour.
Anyway, yes, given the above, they undeniably pose more of a problem.
By any measure, motorists jumping red lights are masively more dangerous and problematic than cyclists doing the same. Your attempt to excuse drivers that "only" go through a few seconds after it has changed whilst claiming that cyclists going through 30+ seconds after is somehow "worse" is simply ludicrous posturing.
I don't think anyone should jump reds, but to pretend that drivers doing it is less of a problem than cyclists is fanciful in the extreme.
heebeegeetee said:
braddo said:
Same for me. It might be irrational that motorists get pissed off by cyclists going through red lights, but the fact is they do get get pissed off. My feeling is that they are less respectful to cyclists as a result. Ergo, cyclists who do jump red lights have a negative impact on the safety of all cyclists.
But so many motorists go through red lights themselves (and certainly amber stop lights) that as per usual, those pissed off motorists are just practicing the usual massive hypocrisy. What motorists and cyclists do is race the amber light and often go through on amber and even red.
What you don't see motorists do is approach a queue of traffic waiting at a red and go around the queue to drive through the red or sit at a red for a while then decide it's ok and set off through red.
I'm not excusing the former, but from a "cyclists get away with everything" point of view, the latter is a key factor.
http://youtu.be/dUftM2SAIus
I wonder whos fault it will be when this gets knocked down or knocks someone down.
I
I wonder whos fault it will be when this gets knocked down or knocks someone down.
I
Ghibli said:
http://youtu.be/dUftM2SAIus
I wonder whos fault it will be when this gets knocked down or knocks someone down.
I
Impressive, you've managed to find someone being a cock.I wonder whos fault it will be when this gets knocked down or knocks someone down.
I
Shall I go and google dangerous driving to find someone ins a car doing something idiotic and then claim ALL car drivers are
s?Just how thick are current crowd on PH, it's worrying...
okgo said:
Impressive, you've managed to find someone being a cock.
Shall I go and google dangerous driving to find someone ins a car doing something idiotic and then claim ALL car drivers ares?
Just how thick are current crowd on PH, it's worrying...
If you like, find one who goes through a red, through pedestrians crossing the road then up the pavement.Shall I go and google dangerous driving to find someone ins a car doing something idiotic and then claim ALL car drivers are
s?Just how thick are current crowd on PH, it's worrying...
Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
Ghibli said:
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt.
No one cries victim when RLJers get hurt RLJing.The problem is people running them over at other times.
Just because they RLJ doesn't give drivers carte blanche to run them over.
Just like you can't ram speeding drivers off the road.
It's not difficult.
Hackney said:
Sorry but this is a bugbear of mine.
What motorists and cyclists do is race the amber light and often go through on amber and even red.
What you don't see motorists do is approach a queue of traffic waiting at a red and go around the queue to drive through the red or sit at a red for a while then decide it's ok and set off through red.
Well, the latter I've seen a few times now at lights on roundabouts. I don't know why, I can only think that a "Because Roundabout" thought comes into their minds, but they'll suddenly drive off through a red light. I've also seen drivers not even see the lights on a roundabout and pass straight through a red.What motorists and cyclists do is race the amber light and often go through on amber and even red.
What you don't see motorists do is approach a queue of traffic waiting at a red and go around the queue to drive through the red or sit at a red for a while then decide it's ok and set off through red.
I agree that motorists race against an amber or red directly in conflict, and very close to, oncoming traffic waiting to turn right and who have priority. The consequences of this going wrong are often severe for all concerned, and is much worse than what cyclists do imo. I am regularly delayed by this, when I have priority and is a real bugbear of mine. I have never ever been delayed by a cyclist doing this in nearly 40 years of driving.
Ghibli said:
If you like, find one who goes through a red, through pedestrians crossing the road then up the pavement.
Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
I am not crying, I actually have very little interest in the whole thing, but I find it quite ridiculous the way some on here live with the fairies. What we have all said is that cyclists jumping red lights not only is potentially far less dangerous than cars doing it (and they do it plenty), and that even though many do jump reds on bikes, it's rarely the cause of someone dying vs all the other possible scenarios. Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
Most people who ride bikes probably drive too, and yet the moment a cyclsit does something wrong EVERYONE who rides a bike is the same, yet when someone like http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-124791/Dri... does something like that, its a singular case and there are idiots in all walks of life. Its utterly repetitive and dull.
walm said:
No one cries victim when RLJers get hurt RLJing.
The problem is people running them over at other times.
Just because they RLJ doesn't give drivers carte blanche to run them over.
Just like you can't ram speeding drivers off the road.
It's not difficult.
Who said anything about drivers thinking they have the right to run cyclists over if they jump lights ?The problem is people running them over at other times.
Just because they RLJ doesn't give drivers carte blanche to run them over.
Just like you can't ram speeding drivers off the road.
It's not difficult.
As far as I can see its boils down to road rage and stupidity from drivers and cyclists.
saaby93 said:
o not really.
Most people just want the roads to be safe,
In which case, given the casualty rate for motorcyclists there's be thrice-weekly threads about them and not for a road user that has the same accident rate as pedestrians.Most people just want the roads to be safe,
ZX10R NIN, the accident rate for you guys is horrific, so why on earth are babbling on about cyclists for?
I think the attitude against cycling is mostly always an English-language-nation thing - UK, US, Aus (possibly the three most obese nations on the planet). It doesn't exist elsewhere.
I think there is a class issue going on, even if so subconsciously. Virtually nothing that is being said against cyclists bears even a moments scrutiny.
Or just plain numptyism. One or the other.
Ghibli said:
If you like, find one who goes through a red, through pedestrians crossing the road then up the pavement.
Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
I've seen somebody in a car do exactly that at the junction half way down Stokes Croft in Bristol where the Sally Army is. He made the two lane (left/straight on) into a three lane by driving up onto the pavement, through a red, through a load of pedestrians on the (green lighted) crossing then off. Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
Ghibli said:
Who said anything about drivers thinking they have the right to run cyclists over if they jump lights ?
You implied it here:Ghibli said:
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt.
Unless you meant don't cry victim when they get hurt RLJing - which no one has EVER cried victim over, so you are just putting up a ridiculous straw man.Not even the most rabid cycle apologist would support a cyclist hurt RLJing.
braddo said:
I do disagree with an earlier comment that the majority of London cyclists (certainly commuters) are not drivers.
Do the maths. The number of cyclists and the number of car owners in London are wildly different figures, with the latter less than half the former. Even if we assumed 100% dual ownership, which itself is entirely improbable, it still wouldn't leave us with a majority.The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
budgie smuggler said:
Ghibli said:
If you like, find one who goes through a red, through pedestrians crossing the road then up the pavement.
Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
I've seen somebody in a car do exactly that at the junction half way down Stokes Croft in Bristol where the Sally Army is. He made the two lane (left/straight on) into a three lane by driving up onto the pavement, through a red, through a load of pedestrians on the (green lighted) crossing then off. Nobody is saying drivers don't jump reds. There are crap drivers all around, it's just that cyclists come of worse in accidents.
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt. The same applies to motorists but they don't get sympathy.
As a side note, if Cam cyclists in the city want to report drivers, they can. Unfortunately drivers can't report cyclist as they don't have reg plates.
http://youtu.be/ktFbgwTfrbE
Dave200 said:
Do the maths. The number of cyclists and the number of car owners in London are wildly different figures, with the latter less than half the former. Even if we assumed 100% dual ownership, which itself is entirely improbable, it still wouldn't leave us with a majority.
The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
What on earth are you talking about? Most 'London cyclists' probably don't even live in London.The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
You don't have to own a car to have a driving licence either.
And car drivers have terrible habits anyway.
Dave200 said:
Do the maths. The number of cyclists and the number of car owners in London are wildly different figures, with the latter less than half the former. Even if we assumed 100% dual ownership, which itself is entirely improbable, it still wouldn't leave us with a majority.
The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
Owning a car and being a legally licence driver are not the same thing. Of my social group in London, I'd say 90% have a licence but only about 25% own a car. The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
walm said:
Ghibli said:
Who said anything about drivers thinking they have the right to run cyclists over if they jump lights ?
You implied it here:Ghibli said:
If cyclists want to run the risk of jumping don't cry victim when they get hurt.
Unless you meant don't cry victim when they get hurt RLJing - which no one has EVER cried victim over, so you are just putting up a ridiculous straw man.Not even the most rabid cycle apologist would support a cyclist hurt RLJing.
If cyclists get hurt while jumping reds, it's their own fault.
thelawnet1 said:
Dave200 said:
Do the maths. The number of cyclists and the number of car owners in London are wildly different figures, with the latter less than half the former. Even if we assumed 100% dual ownership, which itself is entirely improbable, it still wouldn't leave us with a majority.
The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
What on earth are you talking about? Most 'London cyclists' probably don't even live in London.The reality is probably closer to 1/10-1/5, which isn't enough for good habits to permeate by osmosis.
You don't have to own a car to have a driving licence either.
And car drivers have terrible habits anyway.
Most London cyclists do live in London. Unless you somehow believe that more than half of the bikes on the road at any given time are foldy Bromptons that just got off at Waterloo or London Bridge... Otherwise, how did they get there?
Having a driving licence and being a car owner/user in London are two MASSIVELY different things. London is a hard place to drive, and requires a lot of different skills to town, rural or motorway driving. I know this, because I live here, right in the middle, and own a car - do you?
It's not to say that being a driver automatically makes you a better cyclist, nor that you are automatically more skilled because you're a London driver. However, having a cyclist dart out from your blind spot or magically appear alongside you while driving is certainly more likely to make drivers aware of the risk as a cyclist.
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