Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
Mr Gear said:
It's the same stuff, over and over.
While ALL of the above is true, it fails to address what happens when said truck attempts to overtake a cyclist and then turns. It does happen, and the evidence is there all over Youtube if you care to look.
In the latest sorry incident this week, you have no idea who was at fault, so your speculation is unhelpful/patronising/insulting (delete as applicable).
Except I wasn't speculating as to who was to blame in the latest incident. I walk across that junction most days and would have passed by minutes before it occurred but I don't know what happened.While ALL of the above is true, it fails to address what happens when said truck attempts to overtake a cyclist and then turns. It does happen, and the evidence is there all over Youtube if you care to look.
In the latest sorry incident this week, you have no idea who was at fault, so your speculation is unhelpful/patronising/insulting (delete as applicable).
I do know though that the truck involved was older because I have walked past it every day since the accident and if I walk a few feet from my desk I can see it out the window.
Killboy said:
GC8 said:
Killboy said:
GC8 said:
Most of it is cyclists, in my extensive experience (although threads like these and this thread in particular, seldom welcome experienced comment).
How often do you drive in London?I don't see that my driving frequency affects the validity of my opinion, and trying to engage me in a side-argument will be fruitless.
I last drove through the West end a couple of weeks ago. Not in an HGV, and I treated the cyclists, both Boris/suicidal and lycra-clad with courtesy; giving them sufficient space, which really seemed to infuriate the locals who appear to think that touching them is alright providing that you don't actually bump them.
If you think London is no different to the rest of the country, then your experience is beaming.
GC8 said:
I have cycled and driven extensively in London. Re-read my comment about York.
You would know then that to never pass a truck or bus or whatever on the inside would be impossible. And that there are many many times when it is perfectly fine to do so.Why people think you can sum up cycling in London with simple blanket rules I do not know, you can't. All situations are different.
GC8 said:
Are you being wilfully obtuse?
No, you are.GC8 said:
Most of it is cyclists, in my extensive experience (although threads like these and this thread in particular, seldom welcome experienced comment).
Maybe I should ask again, what is your extensive experience? Last time you answered:GC8 said:
Is the location really important?..... I don't see that my driving frequency affects the validity of my opinion..... I last drove through the West end a couple of weeks ago.
GC8 said:
I don't want to argue: I simply do not want to see people squashed.
Well making statements like you have is a good way to start arguments, there are not any really simple solutions to the issues, obviously, and there are even less simple blanket statements that are relevant to all people all the time.Like it or not, cycle lanes are often moving faster than traffic in London, they are also on the inside of traffic, ergo this promotes undertaking, which of course is mostly fine, until it isn't, which is what we keep seeing.
How many of you regularly drive a truck in London? I do.I'm trained to do so.As part of our ongoing training (not forgetting you will have already passed several tests to get this far) we had an entire section dedicated to city driving and the influx of cyclists.The majority of HGV drivers I know did the same and many of them had to ride cycles in London as part of the course.
To label them as out of their depth in such an environment may be true for a very tiny percentage, however, for most, that suggestion is laughable and applies tenfold for many cyclists!.In this industry, you constantly have to adapt to all manner of situations due to the size of your vehicle; but no amount of training or adapting will allow you to keep track of dozens of cycles swarming around your vehicle.You need help to do that and it's often lacking...
I can only tell you what I see and what I see are a lot of cyclists with no clue as to what constitutes dangerous riding, but just as many obviously confident cyclists 'on a mission' who are aware of the risks, but take them anyway.Added to this, many youngsters on bikes simply feel immortal and can be relied upon to take monumental risks; older riders often appear nervous and confused, many Boris bikers appear as though it's their first time in the saddle etc.....it's a very mixed bag.Fortunately - and as with any mode of transport - there are also superb riders, but it's not those I fear.
I am always respectful and considerate towards cyclists (I get many waves and thumbs in the air) and whilst those traits are often reciprocated by riders, there are simply too many incidents that leave me cold.If I can't keep track of all the cyclists or they appear out of nowhere even with my levels of training & road sense, perhaps cyclists really need to be told how to avoid me more often..
To label them as out of their depth in such an environment may be true for a very tiny percentage, however, for most, that suggestion is laughable and applies tenfold for many cyclists!.In this industry, you constantly have to adapt to all manner of situations due to the size of your vehicle; but no amount of training or adapting will allow you to keep track of dozens of cycles swarming around your vehicle.You need help to do that and it's often lacking...
I can only tell you what I see and what I see are a lot of cyclists with no clue as to what constitutes dangerous riding, but just as many obviously confident cyclists 'on a mission' who are aware of the risks, but take them anyway.Added to this, many youngsters on bikes simply feel immortal and can be relied upon to take monumental risks; older riders often appear nervous and confused, many Boris bikers appear as though it's their first time in the saddle etc.....it's a very mixed bag.Fortunately - and as with any mode of transport - there are also superb riders, but it's not those I fear.
I am always respectful and considerate towards cyclists (I get many waves and thumbs in the air) and whilst those traits are often reciprocated by riders, there are simply too many incidents that leave me cold.If I can't keep track of all the cyclists or they appear out of nowhere even with my levels of training & road sense, perhaps cyclists really need to be told how to avoid me more often..
Edited by Digby on Thursday 25th June 00:34
SystemParanoia said:
Digby said:
Killboy said:
If a cyclist prevents you from making any progress, you really should not be behind the wheel of any vehicle.
Care to expand?None of the above bothers me, I'm happy to wait.I just wondered if the comment was suggesting what I thought it was suggesting, because it is the definition of naivety if so.
I walked back to London Bridge pondering aspects of this topic this evening and in particular why so many accidents involved tippers. I wondered whether it is because there are more tippers on the road than other trucks, however if there are they werent out this evening as didnt see a single one!
Did see a dustcart which had no side bars, a flatbed recovery truck, also had no side bars, a small parcel delivery truck, and a modern removal lorry with a full skirt. Maybe I'll have to do the research again in the morning although it makes sense that there are more trucks in the morning, as construction sites start work early, and finish early (well compared to standard office hours).
Did see a dustcart which had no side bars, a flatbed recovery truck, also had no side bars, a small parcel delivery truck, and a modern removal lorry with a full skirt. Maybe I'll have to do the research again in the morning although it makes sense that there are more trucks in the morning, as construction sites start work early, and finish early (well compared to standard office hours).
SystemParanoia said:
Digby said:
Killboy said:
If a cyclist prevents you from making any progress, you really should not be behind the wheel of any vehicle.
Care to expand?Even with 420bhp and as much torque as a whole traffic jam, a laden 32 tonne vehicle accelerates at a pedestrian rate.
Even if this were not the case, a responsible driver gives a cyclist FAR more room than can be accommodated without braking the white line on almost any road.
I don't have an issue with cycles, but the arrogance, ignorance and downright stupidity of the comments quoted amazes me.
GC8 said:
I don't have an issue with cycles, but the arrogance, ignorance and downright stupidity of the comments quoted amazes me.
However much you might think that, it is useful to see these comments as it's also reflected on the road. Just from a cycling point of view, the youtube videos show the whole range.Looking at infrastucure, again from cycling point of view, there are
mixed use cycle lanes on pavements,
supposedly segregated use cycle lanes on pavements but you still have to watch out for pedestrians so are in effect still mixed use
segregated cycle lanes on roads
advisory cycle lanes on roads
and roads where there are no cycle lanes
Relatively new to the mix are advanced stop lines ASL where vehicles can hold back from cycles at traffic lights
Looking just at cycling road usersm and where there is no cycle lane
You have what you could call professional cyclists (in much the same way as youd refer to professional drivers) holding position in traffic queues acting as a vehicle.
The youtube videos often see these passing comment on the other set of professional cyclists filtering or weaving in and out of traffic but despite seeming to act dangerously, manage to pull it off.
This leaves the everyday cyclists not quite knowing what to do.
Again on youtube whereas the second type of professional cyclist will sneak up the inside of indicating trucks trying to reach the ASL zone at the front and come to no harm.
The everyday cyclist following the same, the videos show us, may not be able to reach the ASL zone, end up alongside the cab or wheels , and if theyre lucky, have to take the pavement when the inevitable happens.
Is there a peer pressure situation, going on, led by the type2 Professional cyclist, which the everyday cyclist doesnt quite understand, leaving them vulnerable?
It's of little use being assertive if the position youre in, isn't one you should try to assert.
If the type 2 professional cyclist behaved as type 1 would the everyday cyclist find it easier to understand where are the safe zones?
Is it the everyday cyclist that's usually the subject of this thread title
That's before considering similar issues with vehicles, and infrastructure
eg are advisory cycle lanes leading to a type of behaviour, best not adopted where there is no cycle lane? Same for ASLs.
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 25th June 08:59
HGVs and cyclists sharing London streets creates a conflict potential that simply would not be permitted, were the idea invented and proposed tomorrow. I cycle in central London every day and have also driven a large van and regularly motorcycled there and there are many, many issues. Not least of which is that everyone is out for themselves. Motorbikes scream past everyone too fast and sometimes in the cycle lane, cyclists take stupid risks either through arrogance or ignorance, few people indicate with enough notice before turning and even fewer know how to look for indication on a vehicle they are close to or alongside. Its never ending.
The cyclists and HGV issue is mainly one of naivety on the part of the cyclist, in my experience. Probably everyday I see well meaning but clueless people, wobbling along with their helmet askew, under-inflated tyres, saddle too low and ipod in, doing around 10mph whilst everyone else, other cyclists included, jostle to get by them. I would be interested to know how many of the cyclists killed by HGVs, had music on? In an already dangerous situation, why diminish your senses further with music? I'd be interested in how many of them know that HGVs have indicators down the side of the vehicle and where to look for them?
The bare facts are that car drivers, motorcyclists, cabbies, bus drivers and truck drivers all need to be right on their game to safely negotiate central London roads. Looking and listening for and at everything whilst trying not to be left stranded in a clear zone, hold up traffic, miss time schedules or get hit by something themselves. I am sorry to say therefore that those without the knowledge or experience or confidence, who are by virtue of the fact they're on a bicycle, at the very bottom of the vulnerability food chain and have further reduced their awareness of their surroundings by putting music in their ears, have absolutely no place on those same roads. All other road users need to show a minimum level of competence in their ability and a minimum level of vehicle condition. Why not cyclists?
Sure those people have an entitlement to be there just like everyone else, under the law. But why be the most correct person in the morgue?
Reardy Mister - EC1 city worker, ex mountain bike racer, long time road cyclist, 17yrs motorcyclist, former occasional truck driver.
The cyclists and HGV issue is mainly one of naivety on the part of the cyclist, in my experience. Probably everyday I see well meaning but clueless people, wobbling along with their helmet askew, under-inflated tyres, saddle too low and ipod in, doing around 10mph whilst everyone else, other cyclists included, jostle to get by them. I would be interested to know how many of the cyclists killed by HGVs, had music on? In an already dangerous situation, why diminish your senses further with music? I'd be interested in how many of them know that HGVs have indicators down the side of the vehicle and where to look for them?
The bare facts are that car drivers, motorcyclists, cabbies, bus drivers and truck drivers all need to be right on their game to safely negotiate central London roads. Looking and listening for and at everything whilst trying not to be left stranded in a clear zone, hold up traffic, miss time schedules or get hit by something themselves. I am sorry to say therefore that those without the knowledge or experience or confidence, who are by virtue of the fact they're on a bicycle, at the very bottom of the vulnerability food chain and have further reduced their awareness of their surroundings by putting music in their ears, have absolutely no place on those same roads. All other road users need to show a minimum level of competence in their ability and a minimum level of vehicle condition. Why not cyclists?
Sure those people have an entitlement to be there just like everyone else, under the law. But why be the most correct person in the morgue?
Reardy Mister - EC1 city worker, ex mountain bike racer, long time road cyclist, 17yrs motorcyclist, former occasional truck driver.
Edited by Reardy Mister on Thursday 25th June 09:26
Reardy Mister said:
The bare facts are that car drivers, motorcyclists, cabbies, bus drivers and truck drivers all need to be right on their game to safely negotiate central London roads. Looking and listening for and at everything whilst trying not to be left stranded in a clear zone, hold up traffic, miss time schedules or get hit by something themselves. I am sorry to say therefore that those without the knowledge or experience or confidence, who are by virtue of the fact they're on a bicycle, at the very bottom of the vulnerability food chain and have further reduced their awareness of their surroundings by putting music in their ears, have absolutely no place on those same roads. All other road users need to show a minimum level of competence in their ability and a minimum level of vehicle condition. Why not cyclists?
Despite demonstrating their minimum level of competence in a one-off test pass, these other road users are still killing cyclists, particularly drivers with the additional HGV qualification. The minimum level of competence to ride a bike is being able to stay upright, which you normally can do by the age of 4. What else do you propose for cyclists? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff