Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
saaby93 said:
t's not quite like that. Many cyclists arent going out to deliberately put themselves in a dangerous position, it's that they don't realise.
probably not but many shouldn't be on a bike in the first place. I walk on average 4.5 miles a day across London and whilst the standard of driving is poor, it's nothing compared to the cyclists who seem to have it in for everyone, including themselves. Only the other day I winced as a cyclist went full pelt through the set of red lights at Tavistock square. I don't know if he simply didn't see them but if anything had been coming he'd have been wiped out. There are the other morons who ride on the pavement to avoid the lights, scattering pedestrians as they go nobody uses hand signals to indicate where they are going, they just go where they like, when they like. When I'm walking about, I have to take more care avoiding cyclists than almost any motorised forms of transport. Having said that, the 'Ped riders on L plates are just as bad, just faster and they don't ride on the pavements. If you had to witness how these idiots behave, you wouldn't be surprised how they end up getting hurt.
wormus said:
probably not but many shouldn't be on a bike in the first place. I walk on average 4.5 miles a day across London and whilst the standard of driving is poor, it's nothing compared to the cyclists who seem to have it in for everyone, including themselves. Only the other day I winced as a cyclist went full pelt through the set of red lights at Tavistock square. I don't know if he simply didn't see them but if anything had been coming he'd have been wiped out. There are the other morons who ride on the pavement to avoid the lights, scattering pedestrians as they go nobody uses hand signals to indicate where they are going, they just go where they like, when they like. When I'm walking about, I have to take more care avoiding cyclists than almost any motorised forms of transport. Having said that, the 'Ped riders on L plates are just as bad, just faster and they don't ride on the pavements. If you had to witness how these idiots behave, you wouldn't be surprised how they end up getting hurt.
Fair point(and for balance you do get other idiot road users too)
According to that article the poor girl was just sat at the lights waiting to go whilst the idiot in the lorry was busy with his phone and didn't see her.
No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
croyde said:
According to that article the poor girl was just sat at the lights waiting to go whilst the idiot in the lorry was busy with his phone and didn't see her.
No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
Which article croyde?No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
croyde said:
According to that article the poor girl was just sat at the lights waiting to go whilst the idiot in the lorry was busy with his phone and didn't see her.
No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
How can that be the case, if after a prolonged investigation, they cleared the driver of any wrongdoing?No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
Do you mean this one?
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-lor...
djstevec said:
80sMatchbox said:
Lorry driver will not face charges over death of cyclist Ying Tao at notorious Bank junction
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-lor...
I live in West London and have been cycling for about a year and two thousand miles as a fair weather leisure cyclist
The conclusion I've drawn is that no-one is deliberately setting out to kill me but it's about being responsible. I ride with reflective clothing, day glo jacket and decent lights. I'm still amazed when I'm in my car how many cyclists wear dark clothing with poor or even no lights at all...do they value their lives so little?
On the whole, I've found other road users to be pretty courteous in my 2k miles. The only issues I have found is with older people 60 plus (at the risk of generalising) who seem to lack spatial awareness when overtaking on fast A/B roads.
A lot of my 'good fortune' i put down to riding defensively and always being acutely aware that we are all operating in a shared space with no-one having a greater right to be there than anyone else.
I won't overtake large vehicles on the inside (or indeed any cars in moving traffic where I can see a left side street coming up) simply because i dont consider the risk worthwhile.For the same reason i wont pull into the cycle box at traffic lights if the first vehicle is an HGV as you are in their blind spot. Similarly, when I am out riding circuits in Surrey on some fast A roads I will adjust my route at this time of year with a low sun so that it is behind me and I'm not riding into it making visibility more difficult for cars coming up behind me..it's all about managing risk.
Unfortunately there are extremes at both end of the spectrum who think they have more right than anyone else to be on the road than other road users (both pro car and bike). I bought some volvo life paint the other day(for those of you that don't know this is a transparent washable spray paint that is reflective and ideal for increasing visibility at night. ) You would have thought that cycling organisations would have applauded volvo for this but unbelievably some were critical saying it should be down to car drivers to be more aware of cyclists at all times and not trying to push the blame onto cyclists. It's this kind of blinkered 'right think' that does no-one any favours.
finally, I would say riding a bike has made me more aware and a better driver. I now use my left mirror even more (especially when turning left, even if I'm only moving at walking pace).
My other tip to drivers is (especially on a fast road where the cyclist is doing 20 mph plus) is don't presume the cyclist can hear you if you are coming from behind ..Once you get over a certain speed all you hear is wind noise!
Ride / drive safe!
The conclusion I've drawn is that no-one is deliberately setting out to kill me but it's about being responsible. I ride with reflective clothing, day glo jacket and decent lights. I'm still amazed when I'm in my car how many cyclists wear dark clothing with poor or even no lights at all...do they value their lives so little?
On the whole, I've found other road users to be pretty courteous in my 2k miles. The only issues I have found is with older people 60 plus (at the risk of generalising) who seem to lack spatial awareness when overtaking on fast A/B roads.
A lot of my 'good fortune' i put down to riding defensively and always being acutely aware that we are all operating in a shared space with no-one having a greater right to be there than anyone else.
I won't overtake large vehicles on the inside (or indeed any cars in moving traffic where I can see a left side street coming up) simply because i dont consider the risk worthwhile.For the same reason i wont pull into the cycle box at traffic lights if the first vehicle is an HGV as you are in their blind spot. Similarly, when I am out riding circuits in Surrey on some fast A roads I will adjust my route at this time of year with a low sun so that it is behind me and I'm not riding into it making visibility more difficult for cars coming up behind me..it's all about managing risk.
Unfortunately there are extremes at both end of the spectrum who think they have more right than anyone else to be on the road than other road users (both pro car and bike). I bought some volvo life paint the other day(for those of you that don't know this is a transparent washable spray paint that is reflective and ideal for increasing visibility at night. ) You would have thought that cycling organisations would have applauded volvo for this but unbelievably some were critical saying it should be down to car drivers to be more aware of cyclists at all times and not trying to push the blame onto cyclists. It's this kind of blinkered 'right think' that does no-one any favours.
finally, I would say riding a bike has made me more aware and a better driver. I now use my left mirror even more (especially when turning left, even if I'm only moving at walking pace).
My other tip to drivers is (especially on a fast road where the cyclist is doing 20 mph plus) is don't presume the cyclist can hear you if you are coming from behind ..Once you get over a certain speed all you hear is wind noise!
Ride / drive safe!
croyde said:
According to that article the poor girl was just sat at the lights waiting to go whilst the idiot in the lorry was busy with his phone and didn't see her.
No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
It's wrong to say "poor girl" and "idiot driver" when no evidence has been found to prove that. I'm glad your not a judge!No amount of defensive riding is gonna save you from some of the brain dead fools that are allowed on the road. I say this as a driver.
frisbee said:
A10 said:
How can that be the case, if after a prolonged investigation, they cleared the driver of any wrongdoing?
No evidence is different from cleared. The police never clear anyone of anything,You can only ever be found guilty. You can have as many allegations agsint you as you like but unless youre found guilty youre presumed innocent. Otherwise anyone can say anything against you and youd never get a job.
Are we talking about the linked incident or a different one?
Do we mean Lord Dennings Ordinary Joe Public? You can walk all around your lorry, check its all clear get in the cab and drive off only to find someones parked a baby in a push chair in front of it.
No ordinary Joe would know that, hence however bad you might feel, no offence.
Something like that
johnwilliams77 said:
Won't be the last either
Poke cycling in London
London is an absolutely beautiful City to cycle in at night. Yes I said that. I go and cycle in London with friends at night for pleasure! Poke cycling in London
We park up in Greenwich and cycle in along the South Bank, back North of the river and through the Greenwich Foot Tunnel. London is amazing at night with lit up buildings, the buzz of people and relative lack of traffic. Of course we take precautions with hi-viz and I have FIVE rear lights on the bike/body/helmet.I cycle most days from London Bridge to the office and back. My direct route would take me across Bank junction, so I don't go that way. It is just too dangerous.
What I have concluded is that it is the minority of cyclists that jump red lights although probably 5-10% so it is a significant minority. As an earlier poster said you have to be defensive, coming off Southwark Bridge to cross Thames St I only go through the traffic into the cycle box if I know I have time to get there before the lights change. But its amazing how many people cycle in dark clothes without lights. One night this week there were 4 or 5 young lads on BMX bikes dodging around the traffic on Borough High Street and Tooley St, very difficult to see.
What I have concluded is that it is the minority of cyclists that jump red lights although probably 5-10% so it is a significant minority. As an earlier poster said you have to be defensive, coming off Southwark Bridge to cross Thames St I only go through the traffic into the cycle box if I know I have time to get there before the lights change. But its amazing how many people cycle in dark clothes without lights. One night this week there were 4 or 5 young lads on BMX bikes dodging around the traffic on Borough High Street and Tooley St, very difficult to see.
DoubleD said:
I was talking about cyclists and drivers in general. It's not just one or the other. Both sides are to blame and both sides need to take more care.
Things required to drive an HGV:Harder training to obtain licence from the word go.
CPC courses including cycle awareness etc as a module. (every five years required by law otherwise you cannot drive - many drivers had to ride a cycle as part of this module)
Side bar / extended side bar protection on vehicles.
Added mirrors on vehicles.
Audible warnings on many vehicles.
Numerous warning stickers on vehicles.
More indicators on many vehicles.
Added cameras on vehicles.
Proximity alarms on many vehicles.
Daily checks on vehicles (and possibility of random Vosa roadside checks)
Strict tachograph laws restricting movements.
Things required to ride a bike:
Nothing. You may not have even sat on one, but you are free to mix it up on London streets during your first attempt if you wish.
This is still a big part of the problem imho.
Edited by Digby on Sunday 17th January 02:44
Digby said:
Things required to drive an HGV:
Harder training to obtain licence from the word go.
CPC courses including cycle awareness etc as a module. (every five years required by law otherwise you cannot drive - many drivers had to ride a cycle as part of this module)
Side bar / extended side bar protection on vehicles.
Added mirrors on vehicles.
Audible warnings on many vehicles.
Numerous warning stickers on vehicles.
More indicators on many vehicles.
Added cameras on vehicles.
Proximity alarms on many vehicles.
Daily checks on vehicles (and possibility of random Vosa roadside checks)
Strict tachograph laws restricting movements.
Things required to ride a bike:
Nothing. You may not have even sat on one, but you are free to mix it up on London streets during your first attempt if you wish.
This is still a big part of the problem imho.
I know, I have a class 2 licence. Harder training to obtain licence from the word go.
CPC courses including cycle awareness etc as a module. (every five years required by law otherwise you cannot drive - many drivers had to ride a cycle as part of this module)
Side bar / extended side bar protection on vehicles.
Added mirrors on vehicles.
Audible warnings on many vehicles.
Numerous warning stickers on vehicles.
More indicators on many vehicles.
Added cameras on vehicles.
Proximity alarms on many vehicles.
Daily checks on vehicles (and possibility of random Vosa roadside checks)
Strict tachograph laws restricting movements.
Things required to ride a bike:
Nothing. You may not have even sat on one, but you are free to mix it up on London streets during your first attempt if you wish.
This is still a big part of the problem imho.
Edited by Digby on Sunday 17th January 02:44
frisbee said:
A10 said:
How can that be the case, if after a prolonged investigation, they cleared the driver of any wrongdoing?
No evidence is different from cleared. The police never clear anyone of anything, well not unless they drive a Scottish bin lorry.Digby said:
Things required to drive an HGV:
Harder training to obtain licence from the word go.
CPC courses including cycle awareness etc as a module. (every five years required by law otherwise you cannot drive - many drivers had to ride a cycle as part of this module)
Side bar / extended side bar protection on vehicles.
Added mirrors on vehicles.
Audible warnings on many vehicles.
Numerous warning stickers on vehicles.
More indicators on many vehicles.
Added cameras on vehicles.
Proximity alarms on many vehicles.
Daily checks on vehicles (and possibility of random Vosa roadside checks)
Strict tachograph laws restricting movements.
Things required to ride a bike:
Nothing. You may not have even sat on one, but you are free to mix it up on London streets during your first attempt if you wish.
This is still a big part of the problem imho.
An interesting thought: in the City you now have a massive number of inexperienced cyclists utilising Boris Bikes from tourists, drunks, people who haven't ridden a bike in years etc etc. I think it is relatively fair to argue that of all the bike users in the City, this group is the least proficient at cycling. Harder training to obtain licence from the word go.
CPC courses including cycle awareness etc as a module. (every five years required by law otherwise you cannot drive - many drivers had to ride a cycle as part of this module)
Side bar / extended side bar protection on vehicles.
Added mirrors on vehicles.
Audible warnings on many vehicles.
Numerous warning stickers on vehicles.
More indicators on many vehicles.
Added cameras on vehicles.
Proximity alarms on many vehicles.
Daily checks on vehicles (and possibility of random Vosa roadside checks)
Strict tachograph laws restricting movements.
Things required to ride a bike:
Nothing. You may not have even sat on one, but you are free to mix it up on London streets during your first attempt if you wish.
This is still a big part of the problem imho.
Edited by Digby on Sunday 17th January 02:44
As such, why does it appear that the majority of deaths are happening to those who own their own bicycles who would arguably be at the most proficient end of the spectrum? I find it interesting to ponder what it is that they are doing that appears on the surface to put the more at risk than a drunk tourist, lost, not very good at cycling and busy chatting to a mate?
Sure, there is an argument that it could all boil down to frequency of journeys but I wonder if it actually doesn't boil down to human failings to calculate risk with any true accuracy? For example, professional cyclists become distorted in their risk perception because of the number of times they have gotten away with extremely high risk manoeuvres such as passing to the left and riding in known blind spots and conversely, drivers apply risk metrics differently to a clearly incompetent, Boris Bike but have an expectation that a pro cyclist knows what they are doing?
There are very obviously incompetent, disrespectful and angry vehicle drivers navigating around the City and there are very clearly a large number of white, male, middle class cyclists with serious problems in their private lives that seek an outlet by deliberately navigating themselves into confrontations with other road users but for the most part I don't get the feeling that it is these militant cyclists who are dying or the incompetent drivers who are crashing, for the most part it does seem to be a depressing meeting of two normal people and so I do wonder if bad risk perception is playing some kind of pivotal role?
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