Another cyclist dies in London

[Antony Moxey]

allergictocheese said:

If cyclists learned not to sit to the nearside of vehicles (particularly lorries) on approach to nearside junctions, that would save a lot of lives.

Yes, drivers should be educated to check their blind spots and punishes when they don't, however if the cyclist wasn't in that position in the first place they wouldn't be there to miss.

Being right by the letter of the law and at the same time squashed under the wheels of a lorry is not a 'win'.

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

[FourWheelDrift]

Antony Moxey said:

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

The lorry driver would have/should have seen you as it pulled up and be more aware you are there.

[allergictocheese]

If the truck can turn left at the junction and come into conflict with you, and you can't be ahead of it and well visible, wait for the truck to pull away first.

[DrTre]

The thing I find so odd about this discussion when it crops up is how quick the 'car drivers' seem to adopt a defensive position as though they're somehow being personally persecuted or criticised.

What's with the us and them?

While there are selfish/stupid people using any form of transport I see immeasurably more st, sub standard, inconsiderate, 'i own this piece of road and I'll defend it to the point of using this vehicle as a weapon so you can fk off' dangerous car drivers than I do dangerous cyclists, even accounting for the number advantage.

Face it, car drivers are generally st (you aren't! Great! Nice one!) and anything that can be done to improve the standard of driving will benefit EVERYONE. You. Me. It'll be brilliant!

That's not mutually exclusive to training and helping other road users.

Of course everyone should use the road with their own safety in mind, but they should also consider everyone else's.

I know what I've written won't make a difference, I just an honestly flummoxed at the antagonism between different self identifying groups.

Surely it should be st road users vs good road users.

[ZX10R NIN]

okgo said:

It should be the other way round that to drive a car you must cycle on the roads for a few weeks. That would help a lot of people see just how dangerous and mindless some drivers are. The key for me is that when two people get angry which does happen when you're on the same roads at times, you should NEVER use your car as a weapon, stop the car, get out and do whatever but to run someone off the road or swerve at them should come with very harsh punishment.

On the flip side of that you should NEVER punch someones wing mirror or damage their car

[GadgeS3C]

Antony Moxey said:

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

Position yourself in the lane so the truck can't get alongside?

[GadgeS3C]

DrTre said:

The thing I find so odd about this discussion when it crops up is how quick the 'car drivers' seem to adopt a defensive position as though they're somehow being personally persecuted or criticised.

What's with the us and them?

While there are selfish/stupid people using any form of transport I see immeasurably more st, sub standard, inconsiderate, 'i own this piece of road and I'll defend it to the point of using this vehicle as a weapon so you can fk off' dangerous car drivers than I do dangerous cyclists, even accounting for the number advantage.

Face it, car drivers are generally st (you aren't! Great! Nice one!) and anything that can be done to improve the standard of driving will benefit EVERYONE. You. Me. It'll be brilliant!

That's not mutually exclusive to training and helping other road users.

Of course everyone should use the road with their own safety in mind, but they should also consider everyone else's.

I know what I've written won't make a difference, I just an honestly flummoxed at the antagonism between different self identifying groups.

Surely it should be st road users vs good road users.

[saaby93]

DrTre said:

The thing I find so odd about this discussion when it crops up is how quick the 'car drivers' seem to adopt a defensive position as though they're somehow being personally persecuted or criticised.

If you ask me it's everyone

[DrTre]

PS don't get me wrong, there are some militant cyclists who seem to see any attempt to help them help themselves stay safe as being an attack on THEIR freedoms which is equally as stupid.

Regarding this tragic case, and others, is it fair to say that trucks are disproportionally involved?
If that's the case then it does seem weird that there's not been much progress on a solution ... Cyclist training and driver education in the short term if nothing else

Pps, saaby, I agree. It does become divisive on all sides... But I guess I find it a little odd that we all slag off other drivers and yet when someone or something 'external' suggests drivers are crap then we annoyed with that.

Edited by DrTre on Tuesday 27th January 11:51

[Speedy11]

pablo said:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090417...

In collisions involving a bicycle and another vehicle, the driver’s having ‘failed to look properly’ was reported to be a key contributory factor for drivers and riders at junctions (reported in almost 60% of serious collisions at junctions).

Now thats just "failing to look properly" and "seriouis collisions at junctions" and wont include other key contributing factors, road types etc so its fair to assume that 75% is a good minimum...

It also says

‘cyclist failed to look properly’ was attributed to the
cyclist in 43% of all serious collisions.

and

The second most common contributory factor
attributed to cyclists was ‘cyclist entering the road
from the pavement’. This was assigned in a fifth
of serious collisions and was especially common
for children (over a third of serious collisions).

There are bad drivers and riders, you can't change this, all you can do is driving/ride accordingly. The problem for cyclists is that they come off worse as they are move vulnerable.

Edited by Speedy11 on Tuesday 27th January 11:50

[ZX10R NIN]

pablo said:

ZX10R NIN said:

pablo said:

Herein lies the problem, if someone else makes a mistake I get hurt.... yet I have to take MORE responsibility for my safety? I cant mitigate against the fkwits who drink and drive, text and drive, dont look in their mirrors, ignore road signs, think its funny to squeeze past me against oncoming traffic.....

Yes Pablo this is how it is, as a Motorcyclist I'm in the same boat but I accept this as a part of riding all of the above is true of riding a pushbike, at the same time there are lots of push bike riders that ignore red lights, jump junctions, drink & ride, text & ride etc.

So it's pointless blaming each other the facts are that there are good & bad drivers/riders everywhere what you have to do as an individual is try & be as safe as possible after that make sure you're wearing suitable protection & hope the incident isn't to serious.

So I have to go out and spend money on safety equipment in the hope it will lessen the impact when a motorist hits me?! That's a joke right?

I only wear that st so when I do get hit I can sue the arse off the driver who will inevitably say SMIDSY....

Why's it a joke? Should you make a mistake or error of judgement not see a pot hole in the road etc you end up hitting the tarmac are you telling me you don't want to minimise the risk of hurting yourself?

Again you keep on saying the motorist is going to hit you why?

But you don't want to take any responsibility for your own safety & protection.

Now that is a joke

[Europa1]

Antony Moxey said:

allergictocheese said:

If cyclists learned not to sit to the nearside of vehicles (particularly lorries) on approach to nearside junctions, that would save a lot of lives.

Yes, drivers should be educated to check their blind spots and punishes when they don't, however if the cyclist wasn't in that position in the first place they wouldn't be there to miss.

Being right by the letter of the law and at the same time squashed under the wheels of a lorry is not a 'win'.

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

I suspect what allergictocheese was getting at is the situation where say a truck is sat at a red light and cyclists who arrive at the junction after the truck then move up the inside to get to the front of the queue. If a cyclist is at the red light and a truck subsequently arrives, then (one would certainly hope) the truck driver will have seen the cyclist on approach.

[ZX10R NIN]

GC8 said:

Very sad.

I cant help being prejudiced by the type/appearance of the lorry involved, and also by the fact that the driver was arrested.

To me, this suggests that the driver turned left on the cyclists, which is unforgivable if correct.

As a professional driver the lorry driver will always be arrested & bailed in the event of a death as he or she is more likely to be prosecuted for any offence be it a Tacho Violation weight infringement etc it does not mean they are guilty of anything to do with the accident itself. The driver was bailed pending further inquiries.

Is it also unforgivable if it turns out to be the cyclist that has ended up being in the wrong because the driver now has to wake up everyday knowing someone died while he was driving a truck.

I'd say it's sad all round

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Tuesday 27th January 12:11

[ZX10R NIN]

Antony Moxey said:

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

At this point if the truck has pulled up behind you he should let you pull away first all truck drivers are taught that, at the same time & you'll know this to be the case, whilst waiting at the lights & giving you room to pull off how many cyclists will have tried squeezing past the lorry to reach your position at the junction these are the things I'm talking about.

I said on an earlier post if the truck pulls up & a cyclist is in front of them as they pull up they should get right of way, if the lorry is there first then the bikes should wait behind the truck.

[Makem]

There definitely should be a formal adult cycle test, both practical and theory before you can go on public roads.

And those things where you drag your toddler in a little trailer only 1 foot off the ground should be banned

[v12Legs]

saaby93 said:

v12Legs said:

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

Someone got to ask for source of this

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/a...
http://road.cc/content/news/12065-report-dft-casua...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/drivers-to-b...
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...

Not much you can do when someone runs into you from behind, pulls out on you without looking, or left hooks you though.

My view is that the majority of cyclists are already only too well aware of how vulnerable they are, and most of us do everything possible to keep ourselves safe. Obviously there are some crap and inattentive cyclists, but I see no evidence that there are more cyclists in that category than drivers. Same humans, after all.

Edited by v12Legs on Tuesday 27th January 12:29

[Antony Moxey]

ZX10R NIN said:

Antony Moxey said:

So what do you do when you're sat waiting at a set of lights (yes, some cyclists, like me, do that) and a truck pulls up beside you? It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on the left of a truck - I have to say I always wait behind them if they're stopped at lights - but what do you do if you've got there first? Should you get off and push your bike back so you're behind them, jump the lights, get off and wait on the pavement?

At this point if the truck has pulled up behind you he should let you pull away first all truck drivers are taught that, at the same time & you'll know this to be the case, whilst waiting at the lights & giving you room to pull off how many cyclists will have tried squeezing past the lorry to reach your position at the junction these are the things I'm talking about.

I said on an earlier post if the truck pulls up & a cyclist is in front of them as they pull up they should get right of way, if the lorry is there first then the bikes should wait behind the truck.

Your last paragraph: in an ideal world that's exactly what you'd like to happen, but in reality it doesn't. I know the truck should wait behind, but often they don't - you can also substitute truck for bus or car - I've been waiting at lights when stuff's pulled up beside me, what am I supposed to do?

Your other point about going up the inside of trucks are irrelevent to my point so I'll ignore it other than to say I agree but what that's got to do with vehicles pulling up alongside a cyclist waiting at lights.

[v12Legs]

Makem said:

There definitely should be a formal adult cycle test, both practical and theory before you can go on public roads.

Why?
The vast majority of adult cyclists have already passed a test, and as above, it is the driver most often at sole fault, so formal testing isn't exactly a panacea.

Makem said:

And those things where you drag your toddler in a little trailer only 1 foot off the ground should be banned

Again, why? They are not exactly invisible.

[FourWheelDrift]

v12Legs said:

Makem said:

There definitely should be a formal adult cycle test, both practical and theory before you can go on public roads.

Why?
The vast majority of adult cyclists have already passed a test, and as above, it is the driver most often at sole fault, so formal testing isn't exactly a panacea.

For those who have not passed a driving practice and theory test, you wouldn't drive a car on the road without taking a test so why any other vehicle.

[anonymous-user]

Speedy11 said:

pablo said:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090417...

In collisions involving a bicycle and another vehicle, the driver’s having ‘failed to look properly’ was reported to be a key contributory factor for drivers and riders at junctions (reported in almost 60% of serious collisions at junctions).

Now thats just "failing to look properly" and "seriouis collisions at junctions" and wont include other key contributing factors, road types etc so its fair to assume that 75% is a good minimum...

It also says

‘cyclist failed to look properly’ was attributed to the
cyclist in 43% of all serious collisions.

and

The second most common contributory factor
attributed to cyclists was ‘cyclist entering the road
from the pavement’. This was assigned in a fifth
of serious collisions and was especially common
for children (over a third of serious collisions).

There are bad drivers and riders, you can't change this, all you can do is driving/ride accordingly. The problem for cyclists is that they come off worse as they are move vulnerable.

Edited by Speedy11 on Tuesday 27th January 11:50

Which is fine, if someone on a bike jumps off a kerb onto the road and is hit and dies then so be it. I have no sympathy. Likewise if despite al lthe deaths and stickers on trucks, if cyclists cant see a truck indicating left and ride up the inside then cest la vie. I doubt you will find many regular cyclists defending either action.