Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
rambo19 said:
ManFromDelmonte said:
But what's to say that all blindspot mirrors are correctly adjusted? it's still a powerful video.
I live and cycle in central London and have noticed a lot more trucks, lorries and buses are displaying warning signs on the back about not riding up the inside and some even play a recorded message warning against it when the vehicle is indicating. I think this is a good step.
As for jumping red lights. I think car drivers get hung up on it because they can't do it. The difference is that, on a bike you are far far more aware visually and aurally of what dangers are around you. Going through a red in a car is asking for trouble as you are largely blind and largely deaf whereas on a bike there are many situations where it is safer to jump than to not.
Most deaths are caused by cyclist riding up the inside of large vehicles turning left. If the cyclist, aware that the lights are about to change and that the road is clear, jumps the red by a few seconds, they are out of harms way. If they sit there waiting for the truck to move off with them, they are in far more danger.
I am not saying that all cyclists should jump the lights in all situations, I am just highlighting that it is not the same as doing it in a car.
Sorry, but that is complete b*llocks!I live and cycle in central London and have noticed a lot more trucks, lorries and buses are displaying warning signs on the back about not riding up the inside and some even play a recorded message warning against it when the vehicle is indicating. I think this is a good step.
As for jumping red lights. I think car drivers get hung up on it because they can't do it. The difference is that, on a bike you are far far more aware visually and aurally of what dangers are around you. Going through a red in a car is asking for trouble as you are largely blind and largely deaf whereas on a bike there are many situations where it is safer to jump than to not.
Most deaths are caused by cyclist riding up the inside of large vehicles turning left. If the cyclist, aware that the lights are about to change and that the road is clear, jumps the red by a few seconds, they are out of harms way. If they sit there waiting for the truck to move off with them, they are in far more danger.
I am not saying that all cyclists should jump the lights in all situations, I am just highlighting that it is not the same as doing it in a car.
As a bus driver, one of the most frustrating things is when you get a - usually female - cyclist who waits until the lights go green and then totters about in their own little world at 9 mph, just too wide enough to allow anything to pass safely. The knock on being that other cyclists attempt passing on both the inside and outside of the bus. Most of the cyclists who jump the red at junctions are giving themselves a headstart and thus getting themselves out of harm's way*.
I seem to recall hearing a statistic on the radio last year that female cyclists are six times more likely to be killed on London's roads, and one of the reasons being proffered was that whereas males would generally go as soon as it was safe, rather than on green, females were more likely to wait for the green at the traffic lights and then proceed to ride up the inside gap of HGV/bus that's turning left. There are of course a small number of cyclists who ride in a deliberately provocative/aggressive manner but by and large the cyclists who seem to cause me problems just don't appear to have a clue on the dangers of large vehicles.
- The caveat to the above is that there is no excuse for jumping the red on a pedestrian crossing or while people are crossing on the junction, as sadly happens far too often by idiots.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
An aware cyclist, filming some that aren't being so careful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leW8Mx1GciE
That particular junction has an advanced stop box for cyclists to use, shame the lorry was parked in it, so they had to wait alongside it instead, so poor form from all involved.A cyclist jumping a red light is not that dissimilar in effect to a junction having a advanced stop line. The theory of ASL's being to place cyclists outside of vehicles bind spots and in the appropriate position for the movement being planned e.g. left turn, right turn or straight ahead.
The blind spot of a HGV extends quite a few metres beyond the front of the cab before a cyclist becomes visible if they are located on the offside.
There was a TFL study into fatalities that indicated by far the largest group was offside collisions with HGV's when a cyclist was attempting a undertake. https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pe... page 48.
The blind spot of a HGV extends quite a few metres beyond the front of the cab before a cyclist becomes visible if they are located on the offside.
There was a TFL study into fatalities that indicated by far the largest group was offside collisions with HGV's when a cyclist was attempting a undertake. https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pe... page 48.
b0rk said:
The blind spot of a HGV extends quite a few metres beyond the front of the cab before a cyclist becomes visible if they are located on the offside.
A front blind spot mirror has been a legal requirement for over five years now, so combined with the close proximity mirror which looks down at the near side wheel any cyclists around the cab should be visible. Whether the drivers use these mirrors is another point.It is bizzare that the most vulnerable traffic on the roads have the least legal protection in respect to motoring laws. Would it really be that much more difficult to adopt a more European approach to it or are there just so many poor quality drivers now that it would cause outrage?
gazza285 said:
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
An aware cyclist, filming some that aren't being so careful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leW8Mx1GciE
That particular junction has an advanced stop box for cyclists to use, shame the lorry was parked in it, so they had to wait alongside it instead, so poor form from all involved.Surely the third party in this has to be road layout design.
There was a video posted up yesterday I cant find now,anyone else see it? It was in London a truck trying to go left at a Y fork and a cyclist alongside trying to go right. The truck driver was handed some punishment.
Maybe this thread isnt the right place to discuss these things
yonex said:
It is bizzare that the most vulnerable traffic on the roads have the least legal protection in respect to motoring laws. Would it really be that much more difficult to adopt a more European approach to it or are there just so many poor quality drivers now that it would cause outrage?
Lots of countries in Europe have genuine infrastructure to support cyclists. The mentality of cyclists (and to cyclists) is very different.I visited Copenhagen a couple of years ago, hired a bike and rode about with no issues at all. Never once was I afraid of getting squished. Drivers were courteous to cyclists and vice versa. Also interesting to note, I never saw any cyclists jumping red light either.
London streets are not very conducive to safe cycling. A bit of blue paint down the side of a narrow road which is shared as a bus lane does not a cycle lane make.
GC8 said:
shakotan said:
Its a propaganda video, see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn. With correctly adjusted mirrors and the truck straight, the cyclists would easily be seen.
It's making a valid point and cyclists need to be aware. As I have met you I am reluctant to argue on a forum, but your post is foolish in the extreme.You can't drive a lorry Dan, and suggesting that there isn't a real issue when you don't know what you are talking about is far from helpful.
Foolish/ignorant/naive cyclists put themselves in a position of grave danger everyday. Some get grievously injured or die when vehicles turn left. To suggest that the driver could see them if his mirrors were correctly adjusted / he looked is f
king unbelievably ignorant and stupid.An HGV driver spends a far grater proportion of his time looking in all mirrors - its a fundamental part of driving such a large vehicle. Observation is as much a part of turning the vehicle as turning the steering wheel is.
Cyclists get injured when, principally, they put themselves in a position of danger, and secondarily, when the driver of the vehicle is unable to see them in that position.
Cyclists do this through ignorance, so undermining a positive video and trying to be clever about a topic where you don't really know what you are talking about is foolish, and doing it in this thread is f
king stupid.The reason that this winds me up so much is because I DO know what I am talking about.
If you're saying that its a message to cyclists not to ride up the inside of trucks, surely that's a message that doesn't need saying? I'm staggered anyone needs to be told that in the same vein that anyone needs to be told not to cross the street with your eyes closed.
miniman said:
AyBee said:
Another female aswell
O/T I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant. As for the debate around correctly adjusted mirrors, already started to turn and so forth, that's all well and good, but surely if you put yourself on the nearside of a massive, heavy vehicle that might be turning left, you run the risk of being squished? In the right, maybe, but still squished.
Robert Elise said:
Compared to where?
Have you driven outside the M25?
The roads on my commute are a hazard. Too many half asleep brain dead drivers all looking for the last few minutes to get to some dreary office. Until you have ridden alongside these insane lunatics it is easy to say that it's not an issue..but it really is. Have you driven outside the M25?
Until drivers start to accept that bicycles are actually 'traffic' and that they make up, as well as have an equal share of the roads nothing is going to change. If the law was turned up so that in the event of a crash liability fell on the car/truck I suspect that many of these road rage type incidents would be avoided, not to mention the pointless waste of a human life which seems so blasé in this thread.
Robert Elise said:
Compared to where?
Have you driven outside the M25?
Compared to the law I must see 20-30 cars jump red lights on a daily basis just in the first few miles of my ride in. There is one junction where I estimate 4 or 5 cars jump the red every single time the lights change.Have you driven outside the M25?
Of course I've drive outside the m25, not sure what relevance that has given he was talking about London though.
okgo said:
Robert Elise said:
Compared to where?
Have you driven outside the M25?
Compared to the law I must see 20-30 cars jump red lights on a daily basis just in the first few miles of my ride in. There is one junction where I estimate 4 or 5 cars jump the red every single time the lights change.Have you driven outside the M25?
Of course I've drive outside the m25, not sure what relevance that has given he was talking about London though.
to others who have hinted or explicitly condemned london driving, i would disagree. It's tough, but for the most part predictable. When i myself venture outside the orbital i'm just a little more on guard. Then again, i'm doing more than 10mph...
shakotan said:
GC8 said:
shakotan said:
Its a propaganda video, see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn. With correctly adjusted mirrors and the truck straight, the cyclists would easily be seen.
It's making a valid point and cyclists need to be aware. As I have met you I am reluctant to argue on a forum, but your post is foolish in the extreme.You can't drive a lorry Dan, and suggesting that there isn't a real issue when you don't know what you are talking about is far from helpful.
Foolish/ignorant/naive cyclists put themselves in a position of grave danger everyday. Some get grievously injured or die when vehicles turn left. To suggest that the driver could see them if his mirrors were correctly adjusted / he looked is f
king unbelievably ignorant and stupid.An HGV driver spends a far grater proportion of his time looking in all mirrors - its a fundamental part of driving such a large vehicle. Observation is as much a part of turning the vehicle as turning the steering wheel is.
Cyclists get injured when, principally, they put themselves in a position of danger, and secondarily, when the driver of the vehicle is unable to see them in that position.
Cyclists do this through ignorance, so undermining a positive video and trying to be clever about a topic where you don't really know what you are talking about is foolish, and doing it in this thread is f
king stupid.The reason that this winds me up so much is because I DO know what I am talking about.
If you're saying that its a message to cyclists not to ride up the inside of trucks, surely that's a message that doesn't need saying? I'm staggered anyone needs to be told that in the same vein that anyone needs to be told not to cross the street with your eyes closed.
Robert Elise said:
sorry, think i misread you. thought you were comparing london drivers to others, not drivers to cyclists. in very un-PH style, i apologise.
to others who have hinted or explicitly condemned london driving, i would disagree. It's tough, but for the most part predictable. When i myself venture outside the orbital i'm just a little more on guard. Then again, i'm doing more than 10mph...
GENERALLY drivers in London are more aware that those outside. But you'd expect that.to others who have hinted or explicitly condemned london driving, i would disagree. It's tough, but for the most part predictable. When i myself venture outside the orbital i'm just a little more on guard. Then again, i'm doing more than 10mph...
I don't judge cyclists - in my experience driving large vehicles on the road, the majority of cyclists will attempt to move down the vehicles near side when stationary or slowing approaching traffic lights.
This empirical evidence is sufficient to support my opinion on a forum. It also includes camera-adorned cycling warriors, messengers, road bike commuters and everything in-between. Do all cyclists do it? Certainly not - I don't (but most appear to), but I am reluctant to cycle on the road at all due to the fkwittery of the other drivers around me, so I stick to paths and parks.
This empirical evidence is sufficient to support my opinion on a forum. It also includes camera-adorned cycling warriors, messengers, road bike commuters and everything in-between. Do all cyclists do it? Certainly not - I don't (but most appear to), but I am reluctant to cycle on the road at all due to the f
kwittery of the other drivers around me, so I stick to paths and parks.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff