Another cyclist dies in London

[jmini23]

I cannot believe that when the technology to autobrake the trucks exists (and has done for a number of years) it is not compulsory by now for Crossrail & other HGVs that operate in central London. I am not talking about extra mirrors, beepers & or guard rails which as others have pointed out are likely to cause distraction and become damaged over time, I am talking about lasers & camera systems as fitted (optionally) to Volvo Cars & trucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvKRT-atah8

As both a cyclist and driver in London for over 20 years the ultimate solution has to be cycle lanes separated by kerbs like in Denmark & Holland- however I realise this only makes sense where there is enough space.

[oyster]

It's getting to be beyond a coincidence. Female cyclist and tipper truck - again.

So you have 2 contributory entities. Hazard-unaware cyclists and hazard-creating tipper trucks.

Which leaves 4 options:
1. Do nothing
2. Reduce hazard by changing tipper driver behaviour and lorry design
3. Increase hazard awareness to cyclists by training/marketing
4. Segregate the entities by road layout changes.

Now, when you consider that local councils have armies of road planners and already have contracts with road fixing companies, is it any wonder what their preferred option is?

[walm]

RichB said:

Or not even get in front of the truck at all and simply wait behind until the traffic starts to move.

Which is fine, unless you reached the lights first and the vehicle pulls alongside you.
Again, primary helps here because it prevents that too.

[RichB]

walm said:

RichB said:

Or not even get in front of the truck at all and simply wait behind until the traffic starts to move.

Which is fine, unless you reached the lights first and the vehicle pulls alongside you.
Again, primary helps here because it prevents that too.

Yeah, I can see that...

[surveyor]

jmini23 said:

I cannot believe that when the technology to autobrake the trucks exists (and has done for a number of years) it is not compulsory by now for Crossrail & other HGVs that operate in central London. I am not talking about extra mirrors, beepers & or guard rails which as others have pointed out are likely to cause distraction and become damaged over time, I am talking about lasers & camera systems as fitted (optionally) to Volvo Cars & trucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvKRT-atah8

As both a cyclist and driver in London for over 20 years the ultimate solution has to be cycle lanes separated by kerbs like in Denmark & Holland- however I realise this only makes sense where there is enough space.

I think that degree of technology that would work with pedestrians and cyclists is actually quite new.

[anonymous-user]

walm said:

I think in this case if the road was really too narrow for both bike + truck, I would have made sure I could get right in front of the truck

Doing this would more than likely make you become another statistic. Madness.

[anonymous-user]

St John Smythe said:

walm said:

I think in this case if the road was really too narrow for both bike + truck, I would have made sure I could get right in front of the truck

Doing this would more than likely make you become another statistic. Madness.

+1

Crazy.

Never seen that video of a tanker truck pushing a Renault Clio sideways down the motorway at 56mph?

The driver didn't even know it was there and couldn't see it.

He certainly won't see a cyclist parked in front of his bumper.

[walm]

St John Smythe said:

walm said:

I think in this case if the road was really too narrow for both bike + truck, I would have made sure I could get right in front of the truck

Doing this would more than likely make you become another statistic. Madness.

You are just proving my point that most motorists have absolutely no concept about how primary position works and its safety benefits.

It incredibly rare to be run down from behind - owing to the simple fact that a massive windscreen is NOT a blind spot - so you are highly visible.

Indeed it is the whole point of having bunches of cyclists in those advanced stop line boxes at the front rather than have them all lined up on the left in blind spots.

Genuine question but why do you think it is mad? Do you honestly think the tipper driver would run me down?

[anonymous-user]

In fact everyone needs to take a look at this video to see just how difficult it is to see, feel, and hear contact with another vehicle from the cab of a truck:

http://youtu.be/XJic8Z4Tx9Q

Terrifying yet informative.

He couldn't see an entire car from his cab.

He won't see you on a fking bicycle.

[walm]

NinjaPower said:

He certainly won't see a cyclist parked in front of his bumper.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't sneak into the blind spot (frankly that would be way more effort!).

You would end up around 6ft+ in front of him, at least.

The whole point is to AVOID the area within the yellow boundaries here:

[RichB]

Guys, I made the point that I would always prefer to be behind a lorry at the lights rather than in front and Walm made a valid point - what about if the lorry arrives after you do? In which case it's simple, a quick look round to make eye contact with the driver assures you that he's seen you and then ride defensively until there's a safe opportunity to let him past. It really is a case of common sense.

[anonymous-user]

walm said:

NinjaPower said:

He certainly won't see a cyclist parked in front of his bumper.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't sneak into the blind spot (frankly that would be way more effort!).

You would end up around 6ft+ in front of him, at least.

The whole point is to AVOID the area within the yellow boundaries here:

That's a good illustration actually.

How many cyclists do you think realise they are completely invisible around those areas of a truck?

[anonymous-user]

I think if I had to cycle in London traffic on a regular basis I would have one of these on my bike with the flag at cab window height, no matter how stupid it looked!

[braddo]

NinjaPower said:

I think if I had to cycle in London traffic on a regular basis I would have one of these on my bike with the flag at cab window height, no matter how stupid it looked!

That's actually not a bad idea.

It might need to be easily detachable for if/when it gets caught on a passing vehicle, though.

[anonymous-user]

braddo said:

That's actually not a bad idea.

It might need to be easily detachable for if/when it gets caught on a passing vehicle, though.

Easy, just make the tube holder for the stem like a tight fit but without fixings so it won't fall out but could be pulled out if needed.

[anonymous-user]

yonex said:

This is the crux of it really. It is always the cyclists fault, drivers are never able to take responsibility, whey should they with a few kgs of metal around them?

A bit sweeping to be fair. I pride myself on taking a massive responsibility when driving a 44t truck. You would be staggered at just how much of my time is spent driving for other people, trying to read what they are about to do in order to prevent them ending up under my wheels. I take great pride in the fact I am able to drive these things ( bit sad I know but wanted to be a truck driver since I was a little boy! ) and I am also aware that mistakes can happen. The trouble is that a small mistake in a car may end up in a bump, in a truck you may well kill someone!
Last year my company, We have several thousand drivers ( not Stobrats, I have standards! ) had 4 serious accidents with cyclists, all in London, 2 were fatal. All were investigated by the police, HSE and internally, all left fault with the cyclist, I was told by my driver trainer that one of the fatals involved a cyclist passing other stationery cyclists and going virtually straight under the wheels of the truck, turned out he had his iPod on with an audio book playing and therefore was probably in a world of his own when it was too late to stop.
I don't think it's fair to blame cyclists every time, but I think it's short sighted to not see that by placing yourself on the left of a truck you are causing the problem.
I accept that traffic can stop beside you after you have stopped so maybe having a separate stop line further back from the lights instead of a green box at the front might help. Maybe have cycle specific traffic lights too, with a set at the staggered stop line and a set at the front. That way if you want to cycle through your red light and up the inside of a truck its your choice and therefore your fault and visa versa for the drivers? It wouldn't take much extra space and although it would be a cost it would be insignificant compared to the investigation costs of several fatal accidents.
My company is spending a lot of time with drivers in sessions where they get on bikes and see how it feels near trucks so they get more of an idea about gaps, blind spots etc. However there really is only so much you can do where two sets of "driver error" can be involved.
I will also add that these things are tragic, horrible for the loved ones of the deceased, spare a thought for the driver, a lifetime of guilt is ahead even if he wasn't at fault, I had no fault in my accident yet the guilty feeling of the death of my friend in a car I was responsible for and in control of stays with me every day............

[anonymous-user]

NinjaPower said:

In fact everyone needs to take a look at this video to see just how difficult it is to see, feel, and hear contact with another vehicle from the cab of a truck:

http://youtu.be/XJic8Z4Tx9Q

Terrifying yet informative.

He couldn't see an entire car from his cab.

He won't see you on a fking bicycle.

Walm - take note of the above.

[walm]

St John Smythe said:

Walm - take note of the above.

Did you read any of my replies or look at the pretty picture?

I am well aware of the blind spot 6ft directly in front of a truck.

So, given I avoid that, am I still mad?

[anonymous-user]

walm said:

St John Smythe said:

Walm - take note of the above.

Did you read any of my replies or look at the pretty picture?

I am well aware of the blind spot 6ft directly in front of a truck.

So, given I avoid that, am I still mad?

Glad you've watched the video

The fixation with 'getting in front' of a truck on a bike is not a healthy one.

[rpguk]

I just came across an interesting video which really demonstrates how these things can develop http://youtu.be/sCfiYT_Aa_g?t=45s - the setup is very similar to the one in Victoria. Keep watching to see the footage from the rear view cam which is even more sobering.