50th anniversary of Churchill's death

[johnxjsc1985]

V8 Fettler said:

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high. Patton would have invaded the USSR by himself, although he became conveniently sidelined (hat!)

I have often thought we should have kept a closer relationship with Russia post WW2.

[carinaman]

Derek Smith said:

He was a drunkard, using alcohol to subdue his demons.

We should not eulogise him, suggesting everything he did was great. The BBC are right to highlight the good and the bad.

I'm enjoying the 15 minute Radio 4 programmes on him. Your comments, that Radio 4 show and having just read Shunt makes me think of similarities with James Hunt.

[johnxjsc1985]

carinaman said:

I'm enjoying the 15 minute Radio 4 programmes on him. Your comments, that Radio 4 show and having just read Shunt makes me think of similarities with James Hunt.

its hardly a revelation that the bloke had flaws.
But he was the right person at the right time for this country and we should be grateful for that.
I just don't get the negative comments about a man who died 50 years ago what sort of trip are they on.

[carinaman]

I wasn't having a downer on Churchill. On the 15 minute piece on Radio 4 today they were going on about his gambling, how much he spent at Chartwell and going off to Lake Como to paint. I've been to Lake Como, but I never knew that Churchill went there and painted. I hate to come across as a Pollyanna or a Politically Correct reframed android, but it is quite uplifting that someone that could achieve so much could have problems or flaws and be accomplished at so many things.

He could write, he could orate, he could lay bricks, he could paint. Didn't he also get behind radar? Wasn't radar one of the crucial developments to surviving the Battle of Britain?

People are having a downer on Churchill now, just as it seems he disowned or didn't recognise the achievements of Bomber Command?

[scenario8]

If you think there is some sort of organised "Downing" of Churchill now - and I think you would be hugely mistaken for thinking so - you should read up on how he was written about while he was of working age. (Ie before his glorious resurgence in WW2).

I'm perplexed by some posters' sensitivities with any critical reflections of the great man. Do we really want history to solely record only edited and positive accounts? Besides, the marking of this anniversary has been overwhelmingly positive.

[carinaman]

Perhaps this is more positive:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tpsvk

The Bears in the Channel were paying their respects?

[aeropilot]

johnxjsc1985 said:

V8 Fettler said:

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high. Patton would have invaded the USSR by himself, although he became conveniently sidelined (hat!)

I have often thought we should have kept a closer relationship with Russia post WW2.

In the post war period prior to them blockading Berlin, we were stupid enough to give them the RR Nene which they promtley reverse engineered in time to stick in the Mig15 which gave us all a nasty surprise over Korea in 1950

[aeropilot]

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

Rude-boy said:

I think (from memory so apologies if research proves me incorrect) that Churchill was actually the one person who stood up and said that this was was going to be the start of the next big problem.

As the war got to the point of only a matter of time and post war plans were drawn up WC was dead against giving an inch to the Russia. He foresaw the Cold War and tried to do what he could to avert it. Fact was though that the only way to prevent the events of the next 50 odd years would have been to have continued the war, but change enemy to the Russians once the Nazi's had been defeated. The US was very much against this and was of the opinion that it would be able to control Uncle Joe with the help of the Europeans - we all saw how well that turned out...

Bluntly CW saw what was about to happen, warned everyone, but was dismissed as there was no stomach for a further, new, fight against the Russians. If he was complicit it was only in so far as he could not get people to see what was about to happen so tried to make the best of a st hand.

Indeed.

Although, it didn't help WC's case in that one of the prime movers in this plan was the Germans. As soon as Hilter was dead Admiral Donitz made the offer/suggestion that what was left of the German armed forces should stand with the Allies against the Red Army and save what they could of Eastern Europe.
The yanks wanted to finish the Germans, but there was indeed a British plan drawn up that would have had British, American and German forces to attack the Soviet forces. Google Operation Unthinkable.

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high.

They would have done what they were told, just as they always did. There were many reasons why we didn't though.....as I said, read up on Operation Unthinkable.

[V8 Fettler]

aeropilot said:

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

Rude-boy said:

I think (from memory so apologies if research proves me incorrect) that Churchill was actually the one person who stood up and said that this was was going to be the start of the next big problem.

As the war got to the point of only a matter of time and post war plans were drawn up WC was dead against giving an inch to the Russia. He foresaw the Cold War and tried to do what he could to avert it. Fact was though that the only way to prevent the events of the next 50 odd years would have been to have continued the war, but change enemy to the Russians once the Nazi's had been defeated. The US was very much against this and was of the opinion that it would be able to control Uncle Joe with the help of the Europeans - we all saw how well that turned out...

Bluntly CW saw what was about to happen, warned everyone, but was dismissed as there was no stomach for a further, new, fight against the Russians. If he was complicit it was only in so far as he could not get people to see what was about to happen so tried to make the best of a st hand.

Indeed.

Although, it didn't help WC's case in that one of the prime movers in this plan was the Germans. As soon as Hilter was dead Admiral Donitz made the offer/suggestion that what was left of the German armed forces should stand with the Allies against the Red Army and save what they could of Eastern Europe.
The yanks wanted to finish the Germans, but there was indeed a British plan drawn up that would have had British, American and German forces to attack the Soviet forces. Google Operation Unthinkable.

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high.

They would have done what they were told, just as they always did. There were many reasons why we didn't though.....as I said, read up on Operation Unthinkable.

The general public (including the returning troops) voted for a left wing Labour government on a landslide, does that not tell you what the political leanings of the British were in 1945?

There is no realistic scenario in 1945 where the Western ground forces defeat the Red Army, it's laughable!

See Invergordon Mutiny for the British armed forces always doing what they were told to do.

[jmorgan]

If the allies had tried to go after Stalin, they would have needed them rather large bombs.

[aeropilot]

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

Rude-boy said:

I think (from memory so apologies if research proves me incorrect) that Churchill was actually the one person who stood up and said that this was was going to be the start of the next big problem.

As the war got to the point of only a matter of time and post war plans were drawn up WC was dead against giving an inch to the Russia. He foresaw the Cold War and tried to do what he could to avert it. Fact was though that the only way to prevent the events of the next 50 odd years would have been to have continued the war, but change enemy to the Russians once the Nazi's had been defeated. The US was very much against this and was of the opinion that it would be able to control Uncle Joe with the help of the Europeans - we all saw how well that turned out...

Bluntly CW saw what was about to happen, warned everyone, but was dismissed as there was no stomach for a further, new, fight against the Russians. If he was complicit it was only in so far as he could not get people to see what was about to happen so tried to make the best of a st hand.

Indeed.

Although, it didn't help WC's case in that one of the prime movers in this plan was the Germans. As soon as Hilter was dead Admiral Donitz made the offer/suggestion that what was left of the German armed forces should stand with the Allies against the Red Army and save what they could of Eastern Europe.
The yanks wanted to finish the Germans, but there was indeed a British plan drawn up that would have had British, American and German forces to attack the Soviet forces. Google Operation Unthinkable.

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high.

They would have done what they were told, just as they always did. There were many reasons why we didn't though.....as I said, read up on Operation Unthinkable.

The general public (including the returning troops) voted for a left wing Labour government on a landslide, does that not tell you what the political leanings of the British were in 1945?

They voted for the Labour Govt on the basis of they believed they were most likely to provide the much needed social rebuilding programme, the promised NHS, and the fact that Churchill was perceived as the right wartime leader but not the right peacetime leader.
Sympathetic consideration or affliation to the Soviets had little to do with it.

[aeropilot]

jmorgan said:

If the allies had tried to go after Stalin, they would have needed them rather large bombs.

That was our trump card and likely the only outcome for success..........and also one of the reasons why the plan was pushed to the side.

Of course, if the yanks and WC etc., had listened to Monty in '43, rather than Stalin..........

For all his considerable faults, Monty had read the ultimate situation correctly.

[V8 Fettler]

aeropilot said:

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

V8 Fettler said:

aeropilot said:

Rude-boy said:

I think (from memory so apologies if research proves me incorrect) that Churchill was actually the one person who stood up and said that this was was going to be the start of the next big problem.

As the war got to the point of only a matter of time and post war plans were drawn up WC was dead against giving an inch to the Russia. He foresaw the Cold War and tried to do what he could to avert it. Fact was though that the only way to prevent the events of the next 50 odd years would have been to have continued the war, but change enemy to the Russians once the Nazi's had been defeated. The US was very much against this and was of the opinion that it would be able to control Uncle Joe with the help of the Europeans - we all saw how well that turned out...

Bluntly CW saw what was about to happen, warned everyone, but was dismissed as there was no stomach for a further, new, fight against the Russians. If he was complicit it was only in so far as he could not get people to see what was about to happen so tried to make the best of a st hand.

Indeed.

Although, it didn't help WC's case in that one of the prime movers in this plan was the Germans. As soon as Hilter was dead Admiral Donitz made the offer/suggestion that what was left of the German armed forces should stand with the Allies against the Red Army and save what they could of Eastern Europe.
The yanks wanted to finish the Germans, but there was indeed a British plan drawn up that would have had British, American and German forces to attack the Soviet forces. Google Operation Unthinkable.

British armed forces would not have attacked the Soviets, the support amongst the British armed forces (and the British public) for the Red Army in 1945 was high.

They would have done what they were told, just as they always did. There were many reasons why we didn't though.....as I said, read up on Operation Unthinkable.

The general public (including the returning troops) voted for a left wing Labour government on a landslide, does that not tell you what the political leanings of the British were in 1945?

They voted for the Labour Govt on the basis of they believed they were most likely to provide the much needed social rebuilding programme, the promised NHS, and the fact that Churchill was perceived as the right wartime leader but not the right peacetime leader.
Sympathetic consideration or affliation to the Soviets had little to do with it.

I've had first hand conversations with people who voted in 1945, including (retired) military personnel, your experience please. A view http://openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/PPR/chap1...

[Dr Jekyll]

Did Churchill ever meet Hitler? It doesn't seem so.

[Lost soul]

Dr Jekyll said:

Did Churchill ever meet Hitler? It doesn't seem so.

No but he is quoted as saying he is afraid he would have liked him

The more I see and read about Churchill the more I admire him he was a true colossus of a man