We have no money
Discussion
JagLover said:
crankedup said:
By children do you mean those nearing the adult range, 15-18 years. I believe it is a very good idea and hope it will be implemented.
The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
Depends on how you are defining "the ordinary German population"The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
One criticism I do have on such memorials as this is that those with only a limited knowledge of history might think German crimes were restricted only to Jews. As well as the killing of Jews the Germans also regarded Slavs as an inferior race to be either slaughtered or enslaved and very numerous atrocities were committed by "ordinary" German soldiers on the eastern front against the civilian population, whether Jewish or Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc.
It is also the case that this cannot all be blamed on Hitler. The belief in the "race war" against the Slavs was also widespread among the leadership of the Austro-Hungarian empire and German in the first world war. Thousands of Serbian civilians were slaughtered by Austrian forces as a precursor of the far more widespread killing in WW2.
Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
crankedup said:
Definition of an 'ordinary german' during the WW2, I do not have a definition but it was widely reported after the WW2 had finished and the Holocaust was revealed to the World that innocence and unknowing of the atrocities was the general view expressed by the German civilians. For me it seems inconceivable that the German civilians would have been aware, I have never seen or heard of any media reports acknowledging or publicising such atrocities.
Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Just to take a few points.Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Regarding the "industrialised killing" it is not unique to Jews and Gypsies. Many have claimed that the first gassings were carried out on Russian and Polish POWs. Certainly some of the initial tests, such as the use of explosives to kill instead were carried out on Russian POWs. In respect to the concentration camps themselves (rather than extermination camps) Russians, Poles etc would be mixed in with Jews.
Regarding how much knowledge "ordinary" Germans had of the killings. Perhaps most were not aware of the "industrialised killings", but certainly they know of the slave labourers raised from conquered territories and the usually poor conditions under which they worked. I have read one account of a concentration camp inmate being marched through Germany, ahead of the advancing Russians, who said he was regarded with hatred by the Germans who saw him as he was living evidence of their crimes.
Certainly the German army knew what they had done in Russia and the other countries in the east, which is why they fought so desperately at the end to be captured by the Allies instead.
In regard to learning from history. Nazism was merely the final manifestation of a major element of German opinion in the first half of the Twentieth century. That curious mingling of both a self pitying victimhood and aggressive brutality toward the weak. A belief that the Slavs were sub human, fit only to be slaves of the Reich, and a virulent anti-Semitism that predated Nazism and was at its strongest in places like Vienna. It was the tragedy of the twentieth century that such a people should possess by far the best army in Europe.
garyhun said:
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
That is both astonishing and depressing in equal measure.I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
no money you say ? plenty in dundee apparently ,well an extra 30 mill anyway. http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/dundee...
JagLover said:
crankedup said:
Definition of an 'ordinary german' during the WW2, I do not have a definition but it was widely reported after the WW2 had finished and the Holocaust was revealed to the World that innocence and unknowing of the atrocities was the general view expressed by the German civilians. For me it seems inconceivable that the German civilians would have been aware, I have never seen or heard of any media reports acknowledging or publicising such atrocities.
Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Just to take a few points.Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Regarding the "industrialised killing" it is not unique to Jews and Gypsies. Many have claimed that the first gassings were carried out on Russian and Polish POWs. Certainly some of the initial tests, such as the use of explosives to kill instead were carried out on Russian POWs. In respect to the concentration camps themselves (rather than extermination camps) Russians, Poles etc would be mixed in with Jews.
Regarding how much knowledge "ordinary" Germans had of the killings. Perhaps most were not aware of the "industrialised killings", but certainly they know of the slave labourers raised from conquered territories and the usually poor conditions under which they worked. I have read one account of a concentration camp inmate being marched through Germany, ahead of the advancing Russians, who said he was regarded with hatred by the Germans who saw him as he was living evidence of their crimes.
Certainly the German army knew what they had done in Russia and the other countries in the east, which is why they fought so desperately at the end to be captured by the Allies instead.
In regard to learning from history. Nazism was merely the final manifestation of a major element of German opinion in the first half of the Twentieth century. That curious mingling of both a self pitying victimhood and aggressive brutality toward the weak. A belief that the Slavs were sub human, fit only to be slaves of the Reich, and a virulent anti-Semitism that predated Nazism and was at its strongest in places like Vienna. It was the tragedy of the twentieth century that such a people should possess by far the best army in Europe.
Some nearby German civilians were paraded through Auschwitz by the British prior to victims bodies being buried and the camp being 'sanitised'. Captured German Officers were ordered to assist in the removal of the dead bodies and subsequent burials. The burials themselves were beyond words and barely constitute the term burial as we would normally associate the term with a deceased person.
An extremely emotive shocking, I am genuinely lost for words to express further.
crankedup said:
Indeed. Along with those persons who were 'of an incomplete physic or mind' also murdered. In this even the true German was murdered. It seems inconceivable, and it is this that requires education 'so that we never forget'.
Some nearby German civilians were paraded through Auschwitz by the British prior to victims bodies being buried and the camp being 'sanitised'. Captured German Officers were ordered to assist in the removal of the dead bodies and subsequent burials. The burials themselves were beyond words and barely constitute the term burial as we would normally associate the term with a deceased person.
An extremely emotive shocking, I am genuinely lost for words to express further.
You are correct but I believe you mean Dachau & Buchenwald as Auschwitz was taken by the Russians. Most of the worst concentration/extermination camps were in Poland and so fell to the Russians. Some nearby German civilians were paraded through Auschwitz by the British prior to victims bodies being buried and the camp being 'sanitised'. Captured German Officers were ordered to assist in the removal of the dead bodies and subsequent burials. The burials themselves were beyond words and barely constitute the term burial as we would normally associate the term with a deceased person.
An extremely emotive shocking, I am genuinely lost for words to express further.
JagLover said:
You are correct but I believe you mean Dachau & Buchenwald as Auschwitz was taken by the Russians. Most of the worst concentration/extermination camps were in Poland and so fell to the Russians.
Dachau & Buchenwald were liberated by the Americans.It was Bergen-Belsen that was taken by the British Army.
fblm said:
Amazing. When I went through school in the 80's and 90's WW2 is all we ever did, every single fvcking year. I had no idea WW1 ever happened until recently
I think we must be about the same age (GCES's in '92)We never got as far as WW2, we were 1905-1933 IIRC.
That anyone over the age of 30 can claim not to know about it in this country surprises me to the point of disbelief.
That there are people over 11 and under 30 that don't know about 3 of what are likely the top 5, and certainly top 10, events of the 20th century and how it shaped the World we live in today should be a national embarrassment.
Without wishing to appear crass but the amount of references to Holocaust I note on a weekly basis leaves me wondering HTF they have missed it, or not at least looked further at it to find out what this holocaust thing was! I find out something new about history on here and often I Google a little to find out more - perhaps I am one of the few but Jesus, whatever happened to the enquiring mind?!?!?
oyster said:
B.J.W said:
....able to hold an intelligent conversation.
........he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened!
You have a different interpretation of intelligent than I do!........he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened!
I have no way to qualify it, but I would surprised if the amount of teenagers who are aware of historical events that took place 70 years ago is the same as it was when I was at school. O/T a little (but relevant) - I recall the recent tweet regarding Paul McCartney and Kayne West - the (teenage) tweeter commented that she respected the rapper because he was always promoting 'new talent' (her comments were mirrored by people of a similar age) Horses for courses - if one person has no knowledge of the existence of one of the most important writers/performers in popular music, then I would expect the same to apply in other areas.
As one poster stated earlier - if you are not showing kids archive footage of concentration camps in school, then where are they going to learn about it..... certainly not playing GTA on their X-Boxes.
He was actually quite embarrassed when I explained to him what the Battle of Britain was all about.....
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Were I your friend, I would be looking askance at my prospective in-laws and wondering how dry their cave is when it rains. I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
How has said prospective son-in-law managed to avoid any reference to WW2 on the internet, or (perhaps more pertinently) managed to avoid having sufficient curiosity to delve into questions like "who was this Hitler bloke?" via Google.
And how have his parentsmanaged to avoid having any discussions with their son that touch on WW2? One is supposed to learn things other than from school.
Greg66 said:
Were I your friend, I would be looking askance at my prospective in-laws and wondering how dry their cave is when it rains.
How has said prospective son-in-law managed to avoid any reference to WW2 on the internet, or (perhaps more pertinently) managed to avoid having sufficient curiosity to delve into questions like "who was this Hitler bloke?" via Google.
And how have his parentsmanaged to avoid having any discussions with their son that touch on WW2? One is supposed to learn things other than from school.
One of the first things that I was taught at school was to have an enquiring mind. To learn that the more information you have and knowledge you collect on a subject the better you will understand it and learn from it. How has said prospective son-in-law managed to avoid any reference to WW2 on the internet, or (perhaps more pertinently) managed to avoid having sufficient curiosity to delve into questions like "who was this Hitler bloke?" via Google.
And how have his parentsmanaged to avoid having any discussions with their son that touch on WW2? One is supposed to learn things other than from school.
It would seem that in the race for league table points people have forgotten that School is only where you start to learn how to learn - if I haven't learnt something new every day I feel that I have wasted a day, even if it is something as basic as today's 'point' I learnt on DOC insurance cover!
BoRED S2upid said:
Where do they pluck these figures from? If you were to ask me what sort of budget for a memorial I'd be thinking a hundred grand can buy a lot of man hours and materials. 50 Million holy cow your going to be seeing that from space or it's going to be made of gold.
From this thread it seems that it is going to be a centre as well as a memorial as you or I would understand it. We also have to factor in that part of that will be land cost, which in lala world is a damn sight more than in Newark.crankedup said:
JagLover said:
crankedup said:
By children do you mean those nearing the adult range, 15-18 years. I believe it is a very good idea and hope it will be implemented.
The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
Depends on how you are defining "the ordinary German population"The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
One criticism I do have on such memorials as this is that those with only a limited knowledge of history might think German crimes were restricted only to Jews. As well as the killing of Jews the Germans also regarded Slavs as an inferior race to be either slaughtered or enslaved and very numerous atrocities were committed by "ordinary" German soldiers on the eastern front against the civilian population, whether Jewish or Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc.
It is also the case that this cannot all be blamed on Hitler. The belief in the "race war" against the Slavs was also widespread among the leadership of the Austro-Hungarian empire and German in the first world war. Thousands of Serbian civilians were slaughtered by Austrian forces as a precursor of the far more widespread killing in WW2.
Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Prior to the break out of hostilities the Commander of the German Order Police Batallion 101 police division in Hamburg (area) was contacted regarding the role his men were to play in the final solution. They were to be put under the charge of the army after the invasion of Poland, with responsibility for cotrol of the population/
This police batallion, were generally not Nazis, but a step above the ordinary street bobby, basically control of civil disorder. If there was a fight in a boozer these are the ones who would turn up, or deal with crime, as opposed to say the ones who controlled traffic. But these men were not Nazis, just ordinary coppers basically.
In essence it was made clear what was required in the final solution after the invasion of Poland and onwards, not a detailed plan of how and where, but the expected outcome and the detail they had to work out for themselves, sort of, cutting a long story short.
Now the commander of this division felt that he could not order his men to commit mass murder, so he laid it out quite clearly what would be required. He also said that he would completely understand if any of them felt their conscience did not allow them to do this, if so, he would arrange for their transfer, together with a guarantee that there would be no repercussion on them or their families, nor harm to their careers in the police service.
Not one, not a single one of them, refused to go and they took part in the final solution and mass exterminations.
To my mind this suggests that ordinary Germans knew pretty much what was going on, but closed their minds to it, possibly out of fear, admittedly.
What also makes me go
is that not only do I believe that ordinary Germans knew what was going on, but because these communications, which were transmitted uncoded in clear on police communications, and we, in the security service intercepted them and have them available to read today, then so did we and the Americans know.The fact that we knew was possibly suppressed in order to hide just how much we did know and had succeeded in breaking coded communications.
Greg66 said:
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Were I your friend, I would be looking askance at my prospective in-laws and wondering how dry their cave is when it rains. I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
How has said prospective son-in-law managed to avoid any reference to WW2 on the internet, or (perhaps more pertinently) managed to avoid having sufficient curiosity to delve into questions like "who was this Hitler bloke?" via Google.
And how have his parentsmanaged to avoid having any discussions with their son that touch on WW2? One is supposed to learn things other than from school.
Two of my kids have studied WW2 fairly extensively at school. They're currently aged 12 & 9.
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