We have no money
Discussion
Eclassy said:
2.5 million died during transport
4 million died in holding cells while waiting to be sold.
11 million worked their whole lifetime without pay.
Where is their £50M memorial?
Here. Anyway don't try an derail this thread with one-upmanship; there were plenty of Africans involved in the slave trade. I don't recall reading about any Jews gassing other Jews in the Holocaust.4 million died in holding cells while waiting to be sold.
11 million worked their whole lifetime without pay.
Where is their £50M memorial?
Mojocvh said:
But the gubbermint is to fund a permanent Holocaust memorial to the tune of £50 million in London.
Now there is a documentary series called the world at war, one episode of deals with the atrocity of the Holocaust leaving nothing to the imagination.
This should be compulsory viewing for all.
There is also an episode on the mechanism of turning the German people into compliant supporter's of the NAZI'S.
That should also be compulsory viewing.
None of which would cost £50 million...and would be far more accessible for the UK as a whole.
Did they show the final episode were the Germans finally win by setting up the European Union Now there is a documentary series called the world at war, one episode of deals with the atrocity of the Holocaust leaving nothing to the imagination.
This should be compulsory viewing for all.
There is also an episode on the mechanism of turning the German people into compliant supporter's of the NAZI'S.
That should also be compulsory viewing.
None of which would cost £50 million...and would be far more accessible for the UK as a whole.
FiF said:
The fact that we knew was possibly suppressed in order to hide just how much we did know and had succeeded in breaking coded communications.
IMO - The average Herman or Heidi in the street knew that the Jews, etc, were being rounded up and shipped off somewhere far away, they knew that they were being used as slave labour, but there was a war on and other people's problems were not theirs, nor was Nazi Germany the sort of place you went about asking too many questions, certainly ones that might make you seem sympathetic to the cause of the 'underclass', lest you find out personally where those trains really ran. As the war progressed popular knowledge increased as to what might be going on but in 1940's war time Germany reliable information was short in supply and dangerous to possess.
As for the British, Russian and American high command/politicians. They knew. They knew alright but it was not in their interests to disseminate this to the public. There were German resources were tied up in it that weren't on the battle field, there were labourers working in factories sabotaging armaments, it kept a proportion of the men of fighting age out of the war, the list goes on. It should also not be under stated just how complicit many of the occupied countries were in handing over their jews, etc to the Gestapo and just how many actually joined in to help - not something that you would want debated whilst trying to fight a war as we have seen with the distraction of Guantanamo. Finally anti Semitism was not exactly discouraged at the time, perhaps not that round them up option, but certainly the "I wouldn't do business with a shylock" flavour.
Kermit power said:
Greg66 said:
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Were I your friend, I would be looking askance at my prospective in-laws and wondering how dry their cave is when it rains. I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
How has said prospective son-in-law managed to avoid any reference to WW2 on the internet, or (perhaps more pertinently) managed to avoid having sufficient curiosity to delve into questions like "who was this Hitler bloke?" via Google.
And how have his parentsmanaged to avoid having any discussions with their son that touch on WW2? One is supposed to learn things other than from school.
Two of my kids have studied WW2 fairly extensively at school. They're currently aged 12 & 9.
Its a good way of redistributing £50 million, labour, materials, transportation, lots of taxable earnings, and a general boost to the economy in terms of getting people doing things.
Plus its a big f
k you to the deniers and other assorted asshats who constantly (wrongly) believe they have the superior deity belief.
Plus its a big f
k you to the deniers and other assorted asshats who constantly (wrongly) believe they have the superior deity belief.FiF said:
crankedup said:
JagLover said:
crankedup said:
By children do you mean those nearing the adult range, 15-18 years. I believe it is a very good idea and hope it will be implemented.
The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
Depends on how you are defining "the ordinary German population"The German's were offered a prosperous future and idyllic lifestyle by a strong charismatic leader who was an incredible orator. Hitler knew what the people wanted to hear and he offered that to them, little did they know of his 'other personality' filled with hatred. The implementation of the death camps was a gradual affair starting with the venom spouted from the sadistic followers of hitler. Remember these people were completely void of what we take to be normal human personalities. Hounding out, rounding up, compartmentalise, transport to workhouses which evolved into the dreadful holocaust.
The ordinary German population said that they did not realize or understand what was becoming of the Jewish people?
Others with a deeper knowledge and better understanding I hope will post.
One criticism I do have on such memorials as this is that those with only a limited knowledge of history might think German crimes were restricted only to Jews. As well as the killing of Jews the Germans also regarded Slavs as an inferior race to be either slaughtered or enslaved and very numerous atrocities were committed by "ordinary" German soldiers on the eastern front against the civilian population, whether Jewish or Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc.
It is also the case that this cannot all be blamed on Hitler. The belief in the "race war" against the Slavs was also widespread among the leadership of the Austro-Hungarian empire and German in the first world war. Thousands of Serbian civilians were slaughtered by Austrian forces as a precursor of the far more widespread killing in WW2.
Yes I completely agree with you're comments, but I was expressing a view regarding the 'industrialised killing' of millions of civilians during the second World war. Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people cannot be understated, he also was responsible for the massacre of Roma Gypsies, in fact any race or creed that he considered to be inferior to the Aryan German race. Also we know that the Russian soldiers when setting free the Jews from the camps, the Jewish woman were subjected to rape in many cases.
A fitting Memorial reflecting the sub-human atrocities inflicted within the death camps is certainly worthy every school child should be taught awareness of the WW2 through the school curriculum imo.
For young people today who have no knowledge of the atrocities during the WW2 or have no knowledge of the war itself is truly troubling imo. Lessons from the past may or may not be learned from but to have no knowledge of the past! I am astounded.
Prior to the break out of hostilities the Commander of the German Order Police Batallion 101 police division in Hamburg (area) was contacted regarding the role his men were to play in the final solution. They were to be put under the charge of the army after the invasion of Poland, with responsibility for cotrol of the population/
This police batallion, were generally not Nazis, but a step above the ordinary street bobby, basically control of civil disorder. If there was a fight in a boozer these are the ones who would turn up, or deal with crime, as opposed to say the ones who controlled traffic. But these men were not Nazis, just ordinary coppers basically.
In essence it was made clear what was required in the final solution after the invasion of Poland and onwards, not a detailed plan of how and where, but the expected outcome and the detail they had to work out for themselves, sort of, cutting a long story short.
Now the commander of this division felt that he could not order his men to commit mass murder, so he laid it out quite clearly what would be required. He also said that he would completely understand if any of them felt their conscience did not allow them to do this, if so, he would arrange for their transfer, together with a guarantee that there would be no repercussion on them or their families, nor harm to their careers in the police service.
Not one, not a single one of them, refused to go and they took part in the final solution and mass exterminations.
To my mind this suggests that ordinary Germans knew pretty much what was going on, but closed their minds to it, possibly out of fear, admittedly.
What also makes me go
is that not only do I believe that ordinary Germans knew what was going on, but because these communications, which were transmitted uncoded in clear on police communications, and we, in the security service intercepted them and have them available to read today, then so did we and the Americans know.The fact that we knew was possibly suppressed in order to hide just how much we did know and had succeeded in breaking coded communications.
crankedup said:
Yes I could imagine that as being so, my knowledge of the early introductions is, I am embarrassed to admit, very sketchy. I need to read up more. Thanks for posting.
A crankedup says interesting stuff and I need to read up more. Put in very simplistic terms it seems to me that it started by Hitler grasping the opportunity to take power by playing on the population's willingness to place blame for the economic situation that Germany was in at the time on a minority group/groups and by being willing to push back on/break the Treaty of Versailles...Edited by Lotus 50 on Tuesday 27th January 19:27
FiF said:
Prior to the break out of hostilities the Commander of the German Order Police Batallion 101 police division in Hamburg (area) was contacted regarding the role his men were to play in the final solution. They were to be put under the charge of the army after the invasion of Poland, with responsibility for cotrol of the population/
This police batallion, were generally not Nazis, but a step above the ordinary street bobby, basically control of civil disorder. If there was a fight in a boozer these are the ones who would turn up, or deal with crime, as opposed to say the ones who controlled traffic. But these men were not Nazis, just ordinary coppers basically.
In essence it was made clear what was required in the final solution after the invasion of Poland and onwards, not a detailed plan of how and where, but the expected outcome and the detail they had to work out for themselves, sort of, cutting a long story short.
Now the commander of this division felt that he could not order his men to commit mass murder, so he laid it out quite clearly what would be required. He also said that he would completely understand if any of them felt their conscience did not allow them to do this, if so, he would arrange for their transfer, together with a guarantee that there would be no repercussion on them or their families, nor harm to their careers in the police service.
Not one, not a single one of them, refused to go and they took part in the final solution and mass exterminations.
To my mind this suggests that ordinary Germans knew pretty much what was going on, but closed their minds to it, possibly out of fear, admittedly.
...
The fact that we knew was possibly suppressed in order to hide just how much we did know and had succeeded in breaking coded communications.
I just don't believe this, for a whole series of reasons which I will outline shortly. Can you provide a verifiable source for this story? I hope so.This police batallion, were generally not Nazis, but a step above the ordinary street bobby, basically control of civil disorder. If there was a fight in a boozer these are the ones who would turn up, or deal with crime, as opposed to say the ones who controlled traffic. But these men were not Nazis, just ordinary coppers basically.
In essence it was made clear what was required in the final solution after the invasion of Poland and onwards, not a detailed plan of how and where, but the expected outcome and the detail they had to work out for themselves, sort of, cutting a long story short.
Now the commander of this division felt that he could not order his men to commit mass murder, so he laid it out quite clearly what would be required. He also said that he would completely understand if any of them felt their conscience did not allow them to do this, if so, he would arrange for their transfer, together with a guarantee that there would be no repercussion on them or their families, nor harm to their careers in the police service.
Not one, not a single one of them, refused to go and they took part in the final solution and mass exterminations.
To my mind this suggests that ordinary Germans knew pretty much what was going on, but closed their minds to it, possibly out of fear, admittedly.
...
The fact that we knew was possibly suppressed in order to hide just how much we did know and had succeeded in breaking coded communications.
steviegunn said:
I hope this memorial also honours the memory of the 5 million non-Jews murdered by the Nazis in the death camps. There were gipsies, homosexuals, disabled, political prisoners and POWs sent to the very
same gas chambers.
People who liked art, clever people, people who lived in caravans, people whose limbs were shorter than usual, people who liked people of the same gender, people of the 'wrong' political persuasion....... Just because they were 'different'.same gas chambers.
Religion.
Sexuality.
Politics.
Intelligence.
Ethnicity.
Physiology.
Disability.
People who are not Jewish might think they are safe because this was all about the Jews when in reality they are more likely than they think of fitting the criteria for extermination.
cardigankid said:
I just don't believe this, for a whole series of reasons which I will outline shortly. Can you provide a verifiable source for this story? I hope so.
What are you a denier? What don't you believe? The record of Batallion 101 is easily available Google is you friend. Or better read Professor Browning's work. Ordinary Men.
The part of our intercepts and the offer by the Batallion commander has been covered by examining secret records and has been written about. Richard Breitmann Official secrets: what the Nazis planned, what the Brits and Americans knew.
GTIR said:
Everyone knows it's not possible to murder so many people although I'm sure they tried. Most died of diseases.
I was in Auschwitz on Friday. I saw two tonnes of human hair shaved from the victims and the cloth made from it. I stood inside the gas chamber. I saw the zyclon-B canisters. I heard in minute detail what went on there and saw every part of the camps. It's possible; it happened.
To my simple mind, denying it is the same as condoning it. If you condone any of this then you are worthy of contempt.
What I don't believe is what you are saying.
If you are talking about events of this magnitude you should speak carefully and accurately. The 'Final Solution' was planned at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Murder Squads were sent behind the armies invading Russia in 1941. Police units were not sent into Poland in 1939 to commit atrocities.
If you are talking about events of this magnitude you should speak carefully and accurately. The 'Final Solution' was planned at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Murder Squads were sent behind the armies invading Russia in 1941. Police units were not sent into Poland in 1939 to commit atrocities.
This unit turns out to have been drafted into 'Einsatzgruppe' operations in 1941.
"When given the option of abstaining from the shooting of the Józefów villagers, only thirteen people took that opportunity. From there, the battalion was put to the task of rounding up the local Jewish population, separate those men of working age from the rest, and shooting the remainder. It is worth noting that among the vast majority who did not take Major Trapp up on his offer, there were those who sought to avoid the killings by taking extra time in the roundup, hiding from their officers, and intentionally missing their victims while participating in the firing squad (Browning, 62). There were also those who, after participating in the first waves of shootings, could not participate in further killings
...
The book closes with the following statement and question: “Within virtually every social collective, the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on behavior and sets the moral norms. If the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances, what group of men cannot?” (Browning, 189)."
I think that the book deserves a closer reading than you seem to have given it. From the extracts above I do not take the implication that Germany is a nation of criminals, but that this kind of thing can potentially happen anywhere. Remember My Lai?
The Nazi leadership went to great lengths to conceal what was happening from the mass of the German people. Not only do I think that they were unaware of what was happening, that they believed that they were involved in a war which was not of Germany's making, imho they themselves subsequently became the victims of brutality of an equally horrific nature. It may reasonably be argued that their suffering was not on the same scale but I do not feel that suffering can be balanced in this way. It is all ghastly and who is entitled to feel superior about it?
"When given the option of abstaining from the shooting of the Józefów villagers, only thirteen people took that opportunity. From there, the battalion was put to the task of rounding up the local Jewish population, separate those men of working age from the rest, and shooting the remainder. It is worth noting that among the vast majority who did not take Major Trapp up on his offer, there were those who sought to avoid the killings by taking extra time in the roundup, hiding from their officers, and intentionally missing their victims while participating in the firing squad (Browning, 62). There were also those who, after participating in the first waves of shootings, could not participate in further killings
...
The book closes with the following statement and question: “Within virtually every social collective, the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on behavior and sets the moral norms. If the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances, what group of men cannot?” (Browning, 189)."
I think that the book deserves a closer reading than you seem to have given it. From the extracts above I do not take the implication that Germany is a nation of criminals, but that this kind of thing can potentially happen anywhere. Remember My Lai?
The Nazi leadership went to great lengths to conceal what was happening from the mass of the German people. Not only do I think that they were unaware of what was happening, that they believed that they were involved in a war which was not of Germany's making, imho they themselves subsequently became the victims of brutality of an equally horrific nature. It may reasonably be argued that their suffering was not on the same scale but I do not feel that suffering can be balanced in this way. It is all ghastly and who is entitled to feel superior about it?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Absolutely, like the mutants that still worship Hitler, always amuses me, usually shaven headed, fat, idiots with Nazi tattoos Zeig Heiling, I suspect Hitler would see them and order their extermination as well.50 Million is nothing in the scheme of things, we need reminding that this needs to stop happening globally, people need to have knowledge and an opinion on genocide, the fact it is a long time ago and a long way away needs cutting through and usually a few examples of what went on is enough to convince anyone.
When you hear about what certain members of certain groups want to spread worldwide, it does not sound an awful lot different, that worries me.
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Ignoring the crapness of the education he received, how in the wide world of sports does a UK resident avoid learning of the events 1939-45 in 21 years of existence? Innumerable anniversaries covered in exhaustive detail on the TV news, documentaries, in the papers, spitfires, Winston Churchill, the toothbrush moustache character, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, 'Call of Duty', you could fill books listing cultural events and media coverage about it. Is he spectacularly insular, a monk, or autistic?I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
wc98 said:
no money you say ? plenty in dundee apparently ,well an extra 30 mill anyway. http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/dundee...
I'm morbidly fascinated by this; I can remember reading this V&A thing being slagged off in the press for having a wildly optimistic business plan when the bill was going to be 'just' £40m; quite how presumably the same business plan can possibly justify this ridiculous spunking of public cash on a fatuous piece of wky unbuildable modern architecture remains a mystery.On the subject of the OP, I hope they're giving some of the £50m to the existing Holocaust Centre in Nottinghamshire; the world does not revolve around London.
Rovinghawk said:
I was in Auschwitz on Friday. I saw two tonnes of human hair shaved from the victims and the cloth made from it. I stood inside the gas chamber. I saw the zyclon-B canisters. I heard in minute detail what went on there and saw every part of the camps.
Technically, I believe you stood in a recreation of the gas chamber built by the soviets. I only learnt this yesterday, but it's exactly crap like this that gives oxygen to the denial retards.As the son of a jewish man who fled Europe to escape this, I am disgusted that the panel of 'great and worthies' proclaimed' for us serfs to borrow £50 million to spend on this vanity project.
We should spend within our means.
The concept is very worthy, the proposed memorial project way too grandiose.
If the panel think it is such a good idea, it should be mostly funded by their and others donation.
We should spend within our means.
The concept is very worthy, the proposed memorial project way too grandiose.
If the panel think it is such a good idea, it should be mostly funded by their and others donation.
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