We have no money

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Grumfutock

5,274 posts

164 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
xjsdriver said:
It would never happen today would it?....Right wing asshats blaming the economic situation on minority immigrant groups? No, wait - I take that back - there's plenty of right wing asshats trying to pull the same trick today. hehe
I would suggest that most people blame the idiot left wing 'asshats' rather than immigrant groups for the state of our national finances.

RemyMartin

6,759 posts

204 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Why spend £50 mil on a bullst project when you could punp that into state funded school trips to Auschwitz. That would educate and stay with people long after their visits and give some gravitas to the situation.

xjsdriver

1,071 posts

120 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Grumfutock said:
Really?

4th September 1939, Czestochowa, Poland. 1,140 Polish civilians murdered. In the first three months of war, from the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940, some 60,000 former government officials, military officers in reserve, landowners, clergy, and members of the Polish intelligentsia were executed region by region in the so-called Intelligenzaktion, including over 1,000 POWs.

Nope doesn't sound like organised murder at all! Idiot.



Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 28th January 07:17


Do you think Cardigan Kid could be related to that ahole David Irving?

D

Lotus 50

1,009 posts

164 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
xjsdriver said:
It would never happen today would it?....Right wing asshats blaming the economic situation on minority immigrant groups? No, wait - I take that back - there's plenty of right wing asshats trying to pull the same trick today. hehe
You saw what I did there...;)

Grumfutock - whilst I'm absolutely no fan of profligate Govt spending you need to remember the causes of much of that expenditure over that last few years of the Labour Govt. It wasn't just a "left wing" problem.

Edited by Lotus 50 on Thursday 29th January 09:27

Grumfutock

5,274 posts

164 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
xjsdriver said:
Do you think Cardigan Kid could be related to that ahole David Irving?

D
Doubtful as I dont think Mr Irving has a good fk in him.

jeff m2

2,060 posts

150 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Maybe the Israelis should be building us a memorial for not letting it happen to British Jews.

After 5 pages of bickering about whether this kraut or that kraut knew, which is hardly relevant to another memorial in UK.

Is it not more likely that somebody thinks we are not pro Jewish enough!!!

They probably still remember we abstained on "the creation of Israel" even though it was Balfour who suggested it in the 20s.

While 50M is not a massive amount of money in the grand scheme, spending it on something that is of foreign interest will not fly well with a fair percentage of the population and possibly do more harm than good.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
xjsdriver said:
Grumfutock said:
Really?

4th September 1939, Czestochowa, Poland. 1,140 Polish civilians murdered. In the first three months of war, from the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940, some 60,000 former government officials, military officers in reserve, landowners, clergy, and members of the Polish intelligentsia were executed region by region in the so-called Intelligenzaktion, including over 1,000 POWs.

Nope doesn't sound like organised murder at all! Idiot.


Do you think Cardigan Kid could be related to that ahole David Irving?

D
That will do, guys.

I will accept that I was wrong about systematic murder in Poland in 1939, however that was in the context of another post stating that events which had patently happened after 1941, had taken place in 1939, which I demonstrated was incorrect. I was not aware that Einsatzkommandos were set up in 1939/40. This was because I understood that the extermination campaign against Jews was set up after the Wannsee conference in January 1942. I now know better.

Nevertheless I am stunned and humbled by the extraordinary virtue and moral integrity of a number of posters who assume that only Germans would be capable of this kind of wickedness. As far as Poland is concerned, the Russians also murdered very large numbers of innocent people, but they of course became our allies. They subsequently murdered large numbers of POW's and ethnic minorities whom we delivered to them in the full knowledge of what they planned to do. Why not build a monument to that? Or did you think that the Allies didn't do stuff like that? Or shot unarmed prisoners of war.

The only major difference between airmen carrying out a firebombing raid on or firing artillery into a city, and members of an Einsatzkommando, is that the airmen are not standing in front of the innocent men women and children they are killing. Yet how many refused to do it on moral grounds? That is still going on today, the Americans have done it on a huge scale, and by enormous irony the Israelis are currently doing it to the Palestinians. Why not spend the £50m trying to stop that? That would be a far more impressive monument to innocent victims of the past.

My point is, in the context of this thread, that it is pointless and wasteful to spend £50m on yet another costly bombastic and disneyfied memorial of events which are in no danger of being forgotten. All it is is a symbol of the supposed piety and goodness of the politicians who are funding it with our money. Such a monument will imho also serve to perpetuate a preconception that Germans are basically evil and Israelis are basically good, the whole subject done and dusted, which allows the more shallowminded among us to regard themselves as better than they are, and not to question the many other instances of mass murder going on around them as we speak.

David Irving is, as I understand it, a holocaust denier, which is a very different matter. [Note:- having read a bit more about him it seems that he is not a holocaust denier, but holds 'revisionist' views and questions, on the basis of research from original sources, the detailed history of Nazi extermination of Jews and others as it is now presented to us, without denying the basic premise of what happened. I am just making that extremely clear as he seems to be very sensitive to people libelling him.]

I am still of the opinion that the vast majority of Germans had no idea what was actually happening in the death camps. Otherwise why did the Government go to such lengths to conceal it? Many may have approved of Jews being removed from their society, but they had been inculcated to believe that they were a mortal enemy who were responsible for all or most of their troubles over the previous 30 years. They were living in their society then, not our society now. It was a militaristic society where people did as they were told. They had the seen the country rise from defeat, shame and poverty in the 1930's. Most of them probably thought Hitler could do no wrong. Quite a number believed that they were heading for final victory right up to the day they heard he was dead. They were in the middle of a war where well equipped enemies were all round them, and questioning the authorities was a sure route to jail or lynching, as it would have been in Britain lest we get too holy. Most people today have little real idea how they would have behaved in similar circumstances. Did you know what was happening in Abu Ghraib before it was all over the front page of the Mail on Sunday?


Edited by cardigankid on Saturday 7th February 22:41

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
xjsdriver said:
It would never happen today would it?....Right wing asshats blaming the economic situation on minority immigrant groups? No, wait - I take that back - there's plenty of right wing asshats trying to pull the same trick today. hehe
The Nazi party weren't right wing per-se, after all, the full name for the party is actually the "Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (I think I spelt it correctly, wahay), see that bit that looks a bit like the word socialist, as in, a supporter of socialism, which goes hand in hand with left wing politics?

That's exactly what it means.

TTwiggy

11,500 posts

203 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
The Nazi party weren't right wing per-se, after all, the full name for the party is actually the "Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (I think I spelt it correctly, wahay), see that bit that looks a bit like the word socialist, as in, a supporter of socialism, which goes hand in hand with left wing politics?

That's exactly what it means.
You've rather unfairly ignored the 'national' part of the name.

National socialism was an attempt to create a new economic model that eschews the Marxist socialist model and the international capitalist one. It is not a left wing doctrine and it actually predates the Nazis. It is a far right/fascist ideology with inherent anti-semitism.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
jeff m2 said:
Maybe the Israelis should be building us a memorial for not letting it happen to British Jews.
.
Aye, we told our own fascists to feck off!

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Friday 30th January 2015
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
Nevertheless I am stunned and humbled by the extraordinary virtue and moral integrity of a number of posters who assume that only Germans would be capable of this kind of wickedness.
Not at all, but a people certainly need to be culturally ready to carry out such crimes and there is far more to it than a charismatic leader offering easy solutions in a depression.

When told that his army had captured 90,000 Russians the Ruler's reaction was "leave them to starve". Hitler?, no Kaiser Wilhelm in WW1. This did not happen because the German army still had control in the first world war.

German barbarity in WW2 had roots stretching back decades and reflected the attitudes of much of the elite.



Guybrush

4,330 posts

205 months

Friday 30th January 2015
quotequote all
Grumfutock said:
xjsdriver said:
It would never happen today would it?....Right wing asshats blaming the economic situation on minority immigrant groups? No, wait - I take that back - there's plenty of right wing asshats trying to pull the same trick today. hehe
I would suggest that most people blame the idiot left wing 'asshats' rather than immigrant groups for the state of our national finances.
Yes quite. It's the leftie 'asshats' who are saying that as a way to divert attention from their usual messing up of the economy. Of course, no one wants immigrants who flood the jobs market such that there is an excess, nor surely does anyone want unqualified people who just end up claiming more than they put in. That's common sense, not the mark of the extreme right as a leftie would say as a way of shouting people down in their usual way.

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Friday 30th January 2015
quotequote all
Back on topic, didn't the Final Solution happen abroad?

So why are we building a monument to it here?


cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Friday 30th January 2015
quotequote all
JagLover said:
cardigankid said:
Nevertheless I am stunned and humbled by the extraordinary virtue and moral integrity of a number of posters who assume that only Germans would be capable of this kind of wickedness.
Not at all, but a people certainly need to be culturally ready to carry out such crimes and there is far more to it than a charismatic leader offering easy solutions in a depression.

When told that his army had captured 90,000 Russians the Ruler's reaction was "leave them to starve". Hitler?, no Kaiser Wilhelm in WW1. This did not happen because the German army still had control in the first world war.

German barbarity in WW2 had roots stretching back decades and reflected the attitudes of much of the elite.
I think that is true to a degree, and it is what I meant by militarism. The Kaiser, who, along with Bethmann-Hollweg and the Imperial General Staff, are the people who should have been gassed, and it would have saved us all a lot of trouble. You have to remember that the Nazi leadership, not least Hitler came through the trenches, and that must have left them with a very limited respect for human life.

The mistake is to assume that this is exclusive to the Germans. The attitude which the Kaiser encouraged - along the lines of 'behave like Attila's Huns' - is not much different to Shock and Awe - scare the st out of them and they won't cause you any trouble. Plenty of other nations have committed dreadful crimes, and the problem with this obsession with the Nazis is that it gives the impression that if you are not wearing an SS uniform you can't be a genocidal war criminal, which lets us all off the hook too easily.

On the other side it confers permanent victim status on the Jewish/Israeli nation, which isn't accurate either. Do you not think that comments about their not feeling safe in the UK is actually rather insulting to a country which did not and does not persecute them, welcomed large numbers from Europe, and fought a bitter war to defeat our mutual enemies. (Plus of course kept the peace in Palestine despite attacks from Israeli terrorists).

We should instead be trying to assist the oppressed, examining in detail and vociferously questioning the actions of our respective governments when they are involved in oppressing the innocent anywhere, including the supply of weaponry to states whom they know are going to use them for those purposes.

At risk of offending a further tranche of people, is it not strange that there is not a Viking community or a Norman community in Britain? There isn't because they integrated and became British. The Jewish community have never done that over 1,500 years of history, nor do they show much signs of doing it now. The Muslim community are the same. Is it a coincidence that these groups, and particularly the latter, are the focus of trouble? I have no issue with people celebrating their cultural heritage but they, then, imho, have a much greater responsibility to demonstrate that they are an integrated part of the community. If multi-culturalism has a problem, the question of willingness integrate is at the heart of it.



FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
quotequote all
Apologies for bouncing the thread but I’d left and not continued the bickering, subject of some complaint, not least because of the rank hypocrisy from cardigankid with his unpleasant “I hope you have verifiable sources to back that up” together with the unstated inference ‘Or else’, which was then followed by what he’s since since admitted to be tosh, all of which, one cannot help but notice, was without any source referenced. More double standards than a double standard shop on BOGOF day, and normally worthy of the virtual ignore button.

However on returning to the thread and seeing the following the “stating that events which had patently happened after 1941, had taken place in 1939, which I demonstrated was incorrect” without any reference as to what has supposedly been rebutted there are some issues that can’t be left to lie unanswered.

I have assumed that it’s the attempted rebuttal of Order Police involvement in Poland in 1939 and that they knew prior to the outbreak of war.

cardigankid said:
The 'Final Solution' was planned at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Murder Squads were sent behind the armies invading Russia in 1941. Police units were not sent into Poland in 1939 to commit atrocities.
Let's see what evidence there is. The main problem that has puzzled the historians is a direct result of the destruction of many records by officials as defeat neared. This has left large gaps in the historical record, which historians, such as Browning, have tried to resolve by looking at the records of interviews. Very little has been written about some aspects, and lack of written evidence led to assumptions that certain things didn’t happen or units were not involved. However it has since turned out that the West had much of the evidence already, unfortunately for the historians, this evidence of Nazi planning and what came to be referred to as the Holocaust was and is locked away in secret files marked “Most Secret,” “To be Kept under Lock and Key,” “Not to be removed from this Room.” Professor Browning, nor his enemy in that famous academic spat Goldhagen received any benefit from this evidence. Even today some of the evidence has not been released.

One conundrum has been whether the Holocaust was envisioned by Hitler in advance and then ordered under the cover of war, or did Nazi officials improvise genocide in the middle of a war after other methods of isolation and persecution of Jews and others had failed to find an end to problems. It’s clear the German animosities towards Jews were heightened during the war, this is a normal phenomenon that, when faced with a real enemy, then others, perceived as enemies but who aren’t actually enemies, become the focus of all ills.

It’s clear from records that intercepts on Order Police communications had begun in 1937, indeed by Sept 1939 had become routine, including decryption where necessary, relatively easy as they either transmitted in clear or used a hand coding system known as Double Transposition.(a) This was one adapted from a code used by the British in WW1. (b)

On August 25 1939, Karl Wolff, Himmler’s chief of staff wrote to Kurt Daluege, Head of the Order Police, Reinhard Heydrich, Reich Security Main Office and Theodor Eicke, Commander of 3 Death’s Head Squadrons and newly appointed Higher SS and Police Leader for the regions of Poland about to be conquered by the Eighth and Tenth Armies. The instruction was to pass sealed envelopes to the commanders of various police battalions and Waffen-SS units to be used in Poland, the contents being described as an SS order. The commanders were to open the envelopes and relay the contents to their men just before operations began in Poland. Daluege received 11 copies, ten of which were sent to order police battalion commanders sent into Poland. Wolff’s letter of instruction (c) remained in Daluege’s files after the war, but his retained copy of the orders had been destroyed.

There is record, however, of what Eicke relayed to his troops.(d) The severe laws of war made every order sacrosanct, said Eicke. The most severe and harsh orders had to be obeyed without question or hesitation. The task was to protect Adolf Hitler’s state and to destroy anyone identifiable as an enemy or who sabotaged the war effort. Orders were absolute, and whilst there was no spelling out in advance what the function of each unit would be, special orders were also issued from Hitler and Himmler, such as the order to shoot all Polish insurgents without court-martial. This order went to all the Einsatzkommando and the Order Police battalion commanders. (e)

Additionally some Order Police battalions were required to make detailed record of the number of executions they carried out, and to mention to no-one their “special duties,” the Nazi euphemism for mass killings. It’s not completely clear as to the sum total of Order Police battalions which entered Poland, and participated, but some indications are possible from intelligence records.(f) It’s clear also that British Intelligence had worked out some of the euphemisms, e.g. pacification of an area actually meant execution of enemies. (g)

Daluege himself stated that twelve Order Police Battalions comprising 500 men in each, had followed the regular German army into Poland in September 1939. (h) The Einstazgruppen, Order Police battalions and Waffen-SS burned synagogues and carried out summary executions of thousands of Polish Jews and other Poles. (i) By the end of September 1939 the number of Police battalions in Poland had risen to 21, plus Himmler had ordered their number to be increased to 26,000 men.(j)

Thus it is shown that the reason that historians have not written much about the role of the Order Police in the Poland campaign in September 1939 is because of the destruction of records, however the partial release of documents, following their being kept secret for decades, reluctantly by the National Security Agency and British Intelligence, has shown that the Order Police knew about the plans prior to the invasion of Poland, took part in the planning, and furthermore took an active part in the mass murders. One of these battalions involved was 101.(k) Their initial duties did not involve mass killings but later they were instructed to shoot Jews.

It’s unfortunate that, due to these later released records being unavailable, that historians have taken that the Order Police played a very minor role, indeed in the post war denazification Order Police were categorised as category 2, and the British and American decided to hold off trials of such for various reasons, e.g. the British due to monetary constraints. Order Police and their commanders were rarely investigated, even so there were many self exculpatory accounts including the “ I shot in firing squads but aimed to miss,” or “I participated in rounding up the Jews but we goofed off a lot and wasted time.” (l)

Perhaps it was wrong of me to focus just on one unit, and I admit that, some other battalions were not given the option of non participation, though it does seem that people were not punished. Battalion 322, for example, although many men reported sick, and although they had not been given the opportunity to be given other work on execution days, only one man refused to take part in execution squads throughout the entire war. Despite being under enormous pressure, including time in the Russian campaign, he was not punished.

It seems pointless to continue this now, the references back to the original records are included in the below footnotes. Is there more to come out? Daluege had insisted that he had done nothing wrong, yet even before the war in a 1935 conference he repudiated foreign criticism of persecution of Jews by producing many statistics of their alleged disproportionate involvement in certain crimes and described Nazi efforts “in the general direction of a purge [of Jews]” as beneficial.(m) Yet the contents of his post war interrogation by British Intelligence has still not been released.


Endnotes
a Interrogation of Ernst Sachs 24 Oct 1945 NA RG 238, M-1270/R 27/008,
b Explanatory Note NA RG 457, Box 202 Study of German Police Traffic. Also there is an explanation in Codebreakers: The Inside Story of Bletchley Park which covers a period June-Sep 1941 giving more detail of the code.
c Wolff to Daluege,Heydrich and Eicke, 25 August 1939 and handwritten comments in margin, Naclass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 222/Ordner 66
d Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz (New York, 1961) p73
e Krausnic and Wilhelm, Truppe des Weltansschauungskrieges, 48
f For 1939 and special duties see British Intelligence Location list of Police Batallions p.2 PRO HW 16/1 and Summary of German Police Decodes p.3 PRO HW 16/6
g Summary of German Police Decodes 275-323 21Aug 1941 p3 PRO HW 16/6 part 1. Many more examples in PRO HW 16/6 generally.
h Die Deutsche Ordnungpolizei, Nachlass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 228/Ordner 91, pp12-13, 16
i Discussion of Police battalions 101-104 in Helmut Fangman, Udo Reifner and Norbert Steinhorn, Partiesoldaten – Hamburger Polizei in “3- Reich” (Hamburg 1987) leaf 86/87 and 118-120
j Die Deutsche Ordnungpolizei, Nachlass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 228/Ordner 91, 24-26, 31-32
k Christopher R Browning Ordinary Men Arrival in Poland, and Jewish Virtual Library .org
l Angrick et al, “Da hätte man schon” 360-36
m Jewry and Penal Punishment , copy in Nachlass Daluege,NA RG242, T-580/R 220/Ordner61.



Edited by FiF on Thursday 5th February 20:10

xjsdriver

1,071 posts

120 months

Friday 6th February 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Or we could just send them the bill for building it......memorial gets built, we save a shed load of cash in the process. Job Jobbed!!!

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Saturday 7th February 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
Let's see what evidence there is. The main problem that has puzzled the historians is a direct result of the destruction of many records by officials as defeat neared. This has left large gaps in the historical record, which historians, such as Browning, have tried to resolve by looking at the records of interviews. Very little has been written about some aspects, and lack of written evidence led to assumptions that certain things didn’t happen or units were not involved. However it has since turned out that the West had much of the evidence already, unfortunately for the historians, this evidence of Nazi planning and what came to be referred to as the Holocaust was and is locked away in secret files marked “Most Secret,” “To be Kept under Lock and Key,” “Not to be removed from this Room.” Professor Browning, nor his enemy in that famous academic spat Goldhagen received any benefit from this evidence. Even today some of the evidence has not been released.

One conundrum has been whether the Holocaust was envisioned by Hitler in advance and then ordered under the cover of war, or did Nazi officials improvise genocide in the middle of a war after other methods of isolation and persecution of Jews and others had failed to find an end to problems. It’s clear the German animosities towards Jews were heightened during the war, this is a normal phenomenon that, when faced with a real enemy, then others, perceived as enemies but who aren’t actually enemies, become the focus of all ills.

It’s clear from records that intercepts on Order Police communications had begun in 1937, indeed by Sept 1939 had become routine, including decryption where necessary, relatively easy as they either transmitted in clear or used a hand coding system known as Double Transposition.(a) This was one adapted from a code used by the British in WW1. (b)

On August 25 1939, Karl Wolff, Himmler’s chief of staff wrote to Kurt Daluege, Head of the Order Police, Reinhard Heydrich, Reich Security Main Office and Theodor Eicke, Commander of 3 Death’s Head Squadrons and newly appointed Higher SS and Police Leader for the regions of Poland about to be conquered by the Eighth and Tenth Armies. The instruction was to pass sealed envelopes to the commanders of various police battalions and Waffen-SS units to be used in Poland, the contents being described as an SS order. The commanders were to open the envelopes and relay the contents to their men just before operations began in Poland. Daluege received 11 copies, ten of which were sent to order police battalion commanders sent into Poland. Wolff’s letter of instruction (c) remained in Daluege’s files after the war, but his retained copy of the orders had been destroyed.

There is record, however, of what Eicke relayed to his troops.(d) The severe laws of war made every order sacrosanct, said Eicke. The most severe and harsh orders had to be obeyed without question or hesitation. The task was to protect Adolf Hitler’s state and to destroy anyone identifiable as an enemy or who sabotaged the war effort. Orders were absolute, and whilst there was no spelling out in advance what the function of each unit would be, special orders were also issued from Hitler and Himmler, such as the order to shoot all Polish insurgents without court-martial. This order went to all the Einsatzkommando and the Order Police battalion commanders. (e)

Additionally some Order Police battalions were required to make detailed record of the number of executions they carried out, and to mention to no-one their “special duties,” the Nazi euphemism for mass killings. It’s not completely clear as to the sum total of Order Police battalions which entered Poland, and participated, but some indications are possible from intelligence records.(f) It’s clear also that British Intelligence had worked out some of the euphemisms, e.g. pacification of an area actually meant execution of enemies. (g)

Daluege himself stated that twelve Order Police Battalions comprising 500 men in each, had followed the regular German army into Poland in September 1939. (h) The Einstazgruppen, Order Police battalions and Waffen-SS burned synagogues and carried out summary executions of thousands of Polish Jews and other Poles. (i) By the end of September 1939 the number of Police battalions in Poland had risen to 21, plus Himmler had ordered their number to be increased to 26,000 men.(j)

Thus it is shown that the reason that historians have not written much about the role of the Order Police in the Poland campaign in September 1939 is because of the destruction of records, however the partial release of documents, following their being kept secret for decades, reluctantly by the National Security Agency and British Intelligence, has shown that the Order Police knew about the plans prior to the invasion of Poland, took part in the planning, and furthermore took an active part in the mass murders. One of these battalions involved was 101.(k) Their initial duties did not involve mass killings but later they were instructed to shoot Jews.

It’s unfortunate that, due to these later released records being unavailable, that historians have taken that the Order Police played a very minor role, indeed in the post war denazification Order Police were categorised as category 2, and the British and American decided to hold off trials of such for various reasons, e.g. the British due to monetary constraints. Order Police and their commanders were rarely investigated, even so there were many self exculpatory accounts including the “ I shot in firing squads but aimed to miss,” or “I participated in rounding up the Jews but we goofed off a lot and wasted time.” (l)

Perhaps it was wrong of me to focus just on one unit, and I admit that, some other battalions were not given the option of non participation, though it does seem that people were not punished. Battalion 322, for example, although many men reported sick, and although they had not been given the opportunity to be given other work on execution days, only one man refused to take part in execution squads throughout the entire war. Despite being under enormous pressure, including time in the Russian campaign, he was not punished.

It seems pointless to continue this now, the references back to the original records are included in the below footnotes. Is there more to come out? Daluege had insisted that he had done nothing wrong, yet even before the war in a 1935 conference he repudiated foreign criticism of persecution of Jews by producing many statistics of their alleged disproportionate involvement in certain crimes and described Nazi efforts “in the general direction of a purge [of Jews]” as beneficial.(m) Yet the contents of his post war interrogation by British Intelligence has still not been released.


Endnotes
a Interrogation of Ernst Sachs 24 Oct 1945 NA RG 238, M-1270/R 27/008,
b Explanatory Note NA RG 457, Box 202 Study of German Police Traffic. Also there is an explanation in Codebreakers: The Inside Story of Bletchley Park which covers a period June-Sep 1941 giving more detail of the code.
c Wolff to Daluege,Heydrich and Eicke, 25 August 1939 and handwritten comments in margin, Naclass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 222/Ordner 66
d Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz (New York, 1961) p73
e Krausnic and Wilhelm, Truppe des Weltansschauungskrieges, 48
f For 1939 and special duties see British Intelligence Location list of Police Batallions p.2 PRO HW 16/1 and Summary of German Police Decodes p.3 PRO HW 16/6
g Summary of German Police Decodes 275-323 21Aug 1941 p3 PRO HW 16/6 part 1. Many more examples in PRO HW 16/6 generally.
h Die Deutsche Ordnungpolizei, Nachlass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 228/Ordner 91, pp12-13, 16
i Discussion of Police battalions 101-104 in Helmut Fangman, Udo Reifner and Norbert Steinhorn, Partiesoldaten – Hamburger Polizei in “3- Reich” (Hamburg 1987) leaf 86/87 and 118-120
j Die Deutsche Ordnungpolizei, Nachlass Daluege, NA RG 242, T-580/R 228/Ordner 91, 24-26, 31-32
k Christopher R Browning Ordinary Men Arrival in Poland, and Jewish Virtual Library .org
l Angrick et al, “Da hätte man schon” 360-36
m Jewry and Penal Punishment , copy in Nachlass Daluege,NA RG242, T-580/R 220/Ordner61.



Edited by FiF on Thursday 5th February 20:10
And your point is?

I said that I didn't believe your first post and I was right not to. It contained several significant misquotations from Browning's book. Like 'not a single one refused to take part' . That's not correct, is it? Some 10% refused to take part. Neither was Trapp's offer either as extensive or as magnanimous as you described it. Nor did the incident occur in 1939.

What you are now doing is misquoting me and referring to a whole load of missing supposed documents which might prove anything up to and including the existence of Santa Claus. I am not saying that the Germans did not murder large numbers of Jews and others in a revolting manner, I am saying that the German nation do not have a monopoly of wickedness. I am also saying that if you are accusing people of murder you should take the trouble to get your facts right. I am not offering to come round and break your windows for disagreeing with me.



FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 7th February 2015
quotequote all
You said there were no order police battalions in Poland in 1939. That they didn't participate until 1941. I have shown that isn't the case.

Also Browning didn't have all the facts


You also objected about no source being quoted originally, yet your own, now proven incorrect, assertions were without source.

GFAM.

ExV8

3,642 posts

214 months

Saturday 7th February 2015
quotequote all
Wiki is often wrong but they have this,

After the German attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941, German police units, especially the Einsatzgruppen, operated behind the front lines to shoot "dangerous elements" (Jews and political opponents of Nazism). About 2 million Jews were shot and buried in mass graves, many in the areas of eastern Poland which had been formerly annexed by the Soviets in 1939. The survivors were incarcerated in newly created ghettos.

Going back to the decision to have a memorial. Probably the right thing to do as what happened was ignored at the time.

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Sunday 8th February 2015
quotequote all
Wiki isn't correct in this case.

The point that is being misunderstood is as follows. I am being accused of misquoting Browning as if he is the absolute authority. Yet it isn't Browning that I am referencing except in very minor issues. When Browning produced his work there existed unknown to historians a large amount of information retained as secret in US and British ( mainly) intelligence files. These have since been released and it is to these and others that my references and quotes lead, to National Archives, Public Records Office and other works. There is still information not released but not used by me apart from simply noting it exists.

A quote below from one of the sources about one of the units. There were others far more involved in mass killings than this one.


JVL.org said:
Nazi Perpetrators:Reserve Police Battalion 101

Nazi Perpetrators: Table of Contents | Einsatzgruppen | The Gestapo

Reserve Police Battalion 101 was a unit of the German Order Police [Ordnungspolizei or Orpo] that during the Nazi occupation of Poland played a central role in the implementation of the Final Solution against the Jewish people and the repression of the Polish population. Members of the battalion participated in the round-up and expulsion of Jews, Poles and Gypsies, the guarding and liquidation of ghettos, the deportation to concentration camps and the mass shooting of tens of thousands of civilians.

Raised in Hamburg, Battalion 101 was one of thirteen police formations that were put at the disposal of the German army during its invasion of Poland in September 1939.
It then goes onto reporting what they did. Initially rounding up Polish military and equipment, guarding a camp, before returning to Hamburg. Many of these men were transferred to other units and replaced by old reservists who were then sent back into Poland in May 1940 and in September 1940 ended up at the clear out of the Lodz ghetto.

In May 1941 it was sent back to Hamburg, reconstituted when its members were again reassigned to other units and ranks filled from draftees, Iincluding a group from Luxembourg.

After 12 months of training they went back into Poland in 1942.

The problem is that the records and information that is being used to argue against my point is incomplete and inaccurate.