Discussion
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds don't sing there. 
Weird that, I can remember our next door neighbour when I was growing up telling me about that. He was in the Army in 1945 and was at one of the camps shortly after it had been liberated, I've no idea what he was doing. He said inside the camp there was no birdsong at all, none, even though it was summer.TTwiggy said:
Is there no end to this Muslim tyranny? You'll be telling us they started the Korean War next 
I haven't the numbers to hand but almost certainly more Muslims fought against the Germans either in the form of French colonial troops or in the red army than fought for them.What I was pointing out is that the Germans had no issues with Muslims, hence why most of their post war immigrants were Turks. The Nazis didn't randomly persecute other groups, their targets would have been familiar to German politicians of the previous few decades.
Norfolkit said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds don't sing there.
Weird that, I can remember our next door neighbour when I was growing up telling me about that. He was in the Army in 1945 and was at one of the camps shortly after it had been liberated, I've no idea what he was doing. He said inside the camp there was no birdsong at all, none, even though it was summer.
t, they do. They were singing their tits off when I went. Neither 1 or 2 felt remotely eerie or supernatural either. It was horrific to comtemplate the productionised genocide carried out there, but if you weren't aware of that history it could feel just like an abandoned army barracks or similar.
Hooli said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds didn't sing whilst I was there.
Better?
We only heard one sing the time we went. It was sat on the fence right up the end by the two crematoriums and seemed out of place as we hadn't heard one for hours.Better?
There is a very good film called Conspiracy with Kenneth Branagh that recounts the story of the Wannsee conference.
Obviously not entertaining but very well acted and sets the scene and gives you an insight into the minds of these operators.
It's on Youtube (full length film)
Edited to add, I can also recommend the book "The third reich a chronicle" by Richard Overy for those interested in how it all came to be.
Obviously not entertaining but very well acted and sets the scene and gives you an insight into the minds of these operators.
It's on Youtube (full length film)
Edited to add, I can also recommend the book "The third reich a chronicle" by Richard Overy for those interested in how it all came to be.
Edited by Wills2 on Thursday 29th January 19:24
Lost soul said:
Hooli said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds didn't sing whilst I was there.
Better?
We only heard one sing the time we went. It was sat on the fence right up the end by the two crematoriums and seemed out of place as we hadn't heard one for hours.Better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSHXcRsNaig
rhinochopig said:
Lost soul said:
Hooli said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds didn't sing whilst I was there.
Better?
We only heard one sing the time we went. It was sat on the fence right up the end by the two crematoriums and seemed out of place as we hadn't heard one for hours.Better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSHXcRsNaig
Norfolkit said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds don't sing there.
Weird that, I can remember our next door neighbour when I was growing up telling me about that. He was in the Army in 1945 and was at one of the camps shortly after it had been liberated, I've no idea what he was doing. He said inside the camp there was no birdsong at all, none, even though it was summer.Apparently the reason behind the lack of birdsong not long after liberation and for a few years after was the quantity of lime that was thrown around to stop disease. Maybe the lime content is still high at the camps so not much birdsong is heard.
Cyder said:
Norfolkit said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds don't sing there.
Weird that, I can remember our next door neighbour when I was growing up telling me about that. He was in the Army in 1945 and was at one of the camps shortly after it had been liberated, I've no idea what he was doing. He said inside the camp there was no birdsong at all, none, even though it was summer.Apparently the reason behind the lack of birdsong not long after liberation and for a few years after was the quantity of lime that was thrown around to stop disease. Maybe the lime content is still high at the camps so not much birdsong is heard.
JagLover said:
TTwiggy said:
Is there no end to this Muslim tyranny? You'll be telling us they started the Korean War next
I haven't the numbers to hand but almost certainly more Muslims fought against the Germans either in the form of French colonial troops or in the red army than fought for them.What I was pointing out is that the Germans had no issues with Muslims, hence why most of their post war immigrants were Turks. The Nazis didn't randomly persecute other groups, their targets would have been familiar to German politicians of the previous few decades.
But what is the case is that whilst there are examples of Hitler denigrating muslims, he by and large, particularly publicly, cosied up to Islam and in particular, the Arab states. They had in common a shared hatred of jews and British colonialism. Nazi Germany went on propaganda campaigns in some Arab countries and there are instances of Arab leaders supporting Hitler (and vice versa)
Prior to the war starting, Nazi Germany helped jews leave Germany as part of their 'solution to the jewish problem' and in particular, to Palestine. By 1938, attitudes changed, perhaps when they realised that having all the jews concentrated in one place, may give them increased power which would come back to haunt them
When Germany changed tack and started the mass killings instead, the Arabs countries recognised a country with whom they had much in common which is when the close relationships started
But there are also many instances of both muslims as ordinary citizens who did not sympathise with the Nazis and of arab governements that didn't cooperate. For instance Syria (where my Jewish family originates) founded a facist SSNP with similar tones and based upon the German Nazi party but King Mohammed V of Morocco is famously attributed as having said 'there are no jews in morocco, only morocco subjects' (although there were some restrictive laws for the 200,000 jews that lived in morocco)
So whilst it's no surprise that the arab states by & large identified with the Nazi party once they had a common goal of destroying (in the most literal sense) all jews, it's impossible to generalise about muslims, just as it is impossible today - the expression covers a very large group with a multitude of different attitudes.
jonby said:
JagLover said:
TTwiggy said:
Is there no end to this Muslim tyranny? You'll be telling us they started the Korean War next
I haven't the numbers to hand but almost certainly more Muslims fought against the Germans either in the form of French colonial troops or in the red army than fought for them.What I was pointing out is that the Germans had no issues with Muslims, hence why most of their post war immigrants were Turks. The Nazis didn't randomly persecute other groups, their targets would have been familiar to German politicians of the previous few decades.
Hooli said:
Cyder said:
Norfolkit said:
Adenauer said:
It really is true, the birds don't sing there.
Weird that, I can remember our next door neighbour when I was growing up telling me about that. He was in the Army in 1945 and was at one of the camps shortly after it had been liberated, I've no idea what he was doing. He said inside the camp there was no birdsong at all, none, even though it was summer.Apparently the reason behind the lack of birdsong not long after liberation and for a few years after was the quantity of lime that was thrown around to stop disease. Maybe the lime content is still high at the camps so not much birdsong is heard.
Riley Blue said:
I remember it being eerily silent at Belsen too, on a school visit in the 1960s. It was one of the aspects of the visit that has stuck in my mind ever since.
Some of this could be due to the location, in or near a Pine Forest, they apparently don't support such a large diversity or population of bird life.Also, bear in mind the amounts of lime used. Lime isn't very friendly towards flora & fauna, they tend to stay away from such toxins, given the choice.
I'm not trying to diminish the abject depravity of the atrocities committed in any way, of course. Or your emotional connection to such a deeply thought provoking experience.
I don't think I could even begin to imagine such a desperate journey.
vonuber said:
V-spec said:
I also wonder what it was like being an average German at the time, aware of what was going on for all those years, but knowing the consequences of standing up to it.
It's a question I have never dared ask my Grandma, who was 19 when the war ended. There are very few songbirds that live in the pine forrest of the north German plain, hence no birdsong.
Sorry, but it's as simple as that. I lived in Hohne, in what was an SS barracks back in the day, when working for HM, as well as Munster Ortze, a few miles further north.
The most sinister bit for me wasn't at Bergen-Belsen, but rather the end of the line railway sidings a mile or two down the road, into town.
However, that pailed into insgnificiance when compared to the mortuary table that the mess had in the cellar in Munster. One of Mengele's by all accounts......
How anyone can deny the horror that those maniacs did is beyond my understanding.
Sorry, but it's as simple as that. I lived in Hohne, in what was an SS barracks back in the day, when working for HM, as well as Munster Ortze, a few miles further north.
The most sinister bit for me wasn't at Bergen-Belsen, but rather the end of the line railway sidings a mile or two down the road, into town.
However, that pailed into insgnificiance when compared to the mortuary table that the mess had in the cellar in Munster. One of Mengele's by all accounts......
How anyone can deny the horror that those maniacs did is beyond my understanding.
Edited by ellroy on Saturday 31st January 13:57
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