Discussion
With current violent events becoming more common its plain to see the Jews feeling threatened as the holocaust was in our parents lifetime and survivors still live so its "Touchable" and still relevant today.My worry is the way the current events are being stacked up on TV as perpetrated by a "radical minority" seems to be a reason to feel "Safe" in our armchairs.
The murdering Nazis were actually socialist and a minority,quite sobering with the radical right being portrayed as the racist bigots today.And proof that a minority can still do terrible things.
I have never understood the bloodlust around religion and never will, I like Jewish people and empathize with their eternal victimization,I admire their family bonds and the way they help each other quite humbling sometimes when looking even at ones own family.This current Islamic situation is capable of coming full circle as we have many more power crazed lunatics appearing every day,so many terrible barbaric atrocities going unreported on our censored TV,god help us.
The murdering Nazis were actually socialist and a minority,quite sobering with the radical right being portrayed as the racist bigots today.And proof that a minority can still do terrible things.
I have never understood the bloodlust around religion and never will, I like Jewish people and empathize with their eternal victimization,I admire their family bonds and the way they help each other quite humbling sometimes when looking even at ones own family.This current Islamic situation is capable of coming full circle as we have many more power crazed lunatics appearing every day,so many terrible barbaric atrocities going unreported on our censored TV,god help us.
Grumfutock said:
TTwiggy said:
Grumfutock said:
I also visited Bergen-Belsen whilst based in Germany, very moving.
I think that, sadly, we do still live in a world where people do notice Jews and treat them differently. This thread has even thrown up a holocaust denier FFS. So we need these places to remind some people and to prove to others that these events took place. Just my opinion.
There have been some odd posts on this thread, but I've just read it all back and can't find any deniers at all. I think that, sadly, we do still live in a world where people do notice Jews and treat them differently. This thread has even thrown up a holocaust denier FFS. So we need these places to remind some people and to prove to others that these events took place. Just my opinion.
GTIR said:
The British did the whole concentration camp thing way before those Nazis.
Besides. Everyone knows it's not possible to murder so many people although I'm sure they tried. Most died of diseases.
Besides. Everyone knows it's not possible to murder so many people although I'm sure they tried. Most died of diseases.
There's another thing that I noted however. About three posts in, someone mentions a 'need for security' to keep a 'certain section of society' from causing damage to the memorial.
This is, I feel, pertinent, as when people ask how the holocaust could happen, it's generally agreed that the first step is to remove people's individuality by grouping them together as 'they'. Then you just need to demonise 'them' and you're on your way to mass extermination.
fblm said:
FourWheelDrift said:
fblm said:
Auswitch? FFS
http://auswitchtours.com/auswitch-concentration-camp-history-location.htmlAuschwitz is the German spelling.
911Gary said:
With current violent events becoming more common its plain to see the Jews feeling threatened as the holocaust was in our parents lifetime and survivors still live so its "Touchable" and still relevant today.My worry is the way the current events are being stacked up on TV as perpetrated by a "radical minority" seems to be a reason to feel "Safe" in our armchairs.
The murdering Nazis were actually socialist and a minority,quite sobering with the radical right being portrayed as the racist bigots today.And proof that a minority can still do terrible things.
I have never understood the bloodlust around religion and never will, I like Jewish people and empathize with their eternal victimization,I admire their family bonds and the way they help each other quite humbling sometimes when looking even at ones own family.This current Islamic situation is capable of coming full circle as we have many more power crazed lunatics appearing every day,so many terrible barbaric atrocities going unreported on our censored TV,god help us.
The Nazis were a 'National Socialist' party, with the emphasis on 'nationalist'. I don't want to take this wildly off topic, but – despite PH's view that everything lefty is evil – the Nazis were not socialist in a traditional left-wing way.The murdering Nazis were actually socialist and a minority,quite sobering with the radical right being portrayed as the racist bigots today.And proof that a minority can still do terrible things.
I have never understood the bloodlust around religion and never will, I like Jewish people and empathize with their eternal victimization,I admire their family bonds and the way they help each other quite humbling sometimes when looking even at ones own family.This current Islamic situation is capable of coming full circle as we have many more power crazed lunatics appearing every day,so many terrible barbaric atrocities going unreported on our censored TV,god help us.
There is a large-ish part of society that advocates the destruction of Auschwitz under the argument that such a place should be levelled out of respect to those who died there.
However, a crime of such magnitude and scope means that far more can be learned from it by keeping it standing and educating new generations what happened there in order to prevent a repeat.
I was part of a school trip that went to Sachenhausen camp in Germany some 20 years ago. We all went in by coach and, being forty 16 year old kids, were messing around on the way there, loud noise, etc, etc.
We spent the day there (in the freezing cold) and it was one of the most moving places I've ever been to.
Our coach trip back was in silence - just reflecting on what we'd seen and I've never forgotten our visit.
However, a crime of such magnitude and scope means that far more can be learned from it by keeping it standing and educating new generations what happened there in order to prevent a repeat.
I was part of a school trip that went to Sachenhausen camp in Germany some 20 years ago. We all went in by coach and, being forty 16 year old kids, were messing around on the way there, loud noise, etc, etc.
We spent the day there (in the freezing cold) and it was one of the most moving places I've ever been to.
Our coach trip back was in silence - just reflecting on what we'd seen and I've never forgotten our visit.
TTwiggy said:
The Nazis were a 'National Socialist' party, with the emphasis on 'nationalist'. I don't want to take this wildly off topic, but – despite PH's view that everything lefty is evil – the Nazis were not socialist in a traditional left-wing way.
Sorry I did go OT apologies OPTTwiggy said:
The Nazis were a 'National Socialist' party, with the emphasis on 'nationalist'. I don't want to take this wildly off topic, but – despite PH's view that everything lefty is evil – the Nazis were not socialist in a traditional left-wing way.
Not wishing to derail but as someone who spent 3 years of their life on political history I would suggest that one should look at political ideology as a clock face. The absolute liberals are at 6 o'clock. The Communists and the Nazis at 5 past and 5 to the hour respectively. Rude-boy said:
TTwiggy said:
The Nazis were a 'National Socialist' party, with the emphasis on 'nationalist'. I don't want to take this wildly off topic, but – despite PH's view that everything lefty is evil – the Nazis were not socialist in a traditional left-wing way.
Not wishing to derail but as someone who spent 3 years of their life on political history I would suggest that one should look at political ideology as a clock face. The absolute liberals are at 6 o'clock. The Communists and the Nazis at 5 past and 5 to the hour respectively. 
Rude-boy said:
Not wishing to derail but as someone who spent 3 years of their life on political history I would suggest that one should look at political ideology as a clock face. The absolute liberals are at 6 o'clock. The Communists and the Nazis at 5 past and 5 to the hour respectively.
If by that you mean that they are both at the extremes, but in effect close together simultaneously I would agree with you.In economic matters "an inherent aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigisme,[4] meaning an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence over investment, as opposed to having a merely regulatory role. In general, apart from the nationalizations of some industries, fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state",
Which is more similar to Communism than Liberalism.
Communist regimes have also been responsible for extermination of minorities from the USSR to Cambodia.
Those Communists believing in "Socialism in one country" have more in common with Fascism than any other party.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, but that simply isn't true. They were certainly singing the day I was there. It's a moving memorial to an incomprehensible mindset and series of events - and everyone should be encouraged to visit and reflect etc; but there's no need to try to 'add' to it by quoting nonsense. It's also not true that the camp is actually physically colder then the surrounding area, which I've heard quoted before too. It may feel 'chilling' but it's presence doesn't alter basic laws of thermodynamics.
Rude-boy said:
crankedup said:
I have already expressed my feelings regarding the subject in an alternative thread in the forum.
Would need to mention that I have learn't about some characteristics, attitudes, insensitivity and lack of respect regarding the subject by some posters within this thread. I wouldn't believe it unless I read it.
It has been quite an interesting insight into the human mind. Some posters who I have previously thought diametrically opposed to my view on life have proved that there is common ground in even the most divided (yes I do mean you cranky Would need to mention that I have learn't about some characteristics, attitudes, insensitivity and lack of respect regarding the subject by some posters within this thread. I wouldn't believe it unless I read it.
), others have stunned me with their lack of understanding (to be kind to them), even if I am not totally surprised to find a lack of empathy.I went there a few years ago with Mrs RB and, even for an emotional retard like me who has been reading about this sort of thing since they could first read and so was under no illusions, it was highly moving. Sometimes it is just difficult to fathom the shear scale of it all, even when looking into a large room filled to the ceiling with human hair. I remember one area filled with artificial limbs - thousands of them. Worse when you realise that this is what they found when the allies got there so perhaps only represented a month or two's worth, may be less....
What spurred me to post though is that when we were there there were a couple of people who were posing for pictures under the gates. Not tasteful pictures but grinning goons and 'victory' stances sporting huge grins and outstretched arms. As we were taken round we also noted others who were clearly unaffected by what they were seeing and far more interested in just having a good time and that night's plans. Very saddening but one must always remember that not everyone has the same morality, nor is everyone capable of taking basic facts and seeing the bigger picture in it's full horror.
This wasn't the 'simple' raising of a village or town a la what is happening in Nigeria at the minute this was on a continental scale. There is little we can do to stop humans being human and there will always be mass atrocities in the World but we absolutely must ensure that it can never happen on such a vast scale, which I believe is within our power.
Edit for typo
Edited by Rude-boy on Wednesday 28th January 14:26
And yet, as we all appreciate I would imagine, these are the two main drivers behind so much tragedy.
JagLover said:
Rude-boy said:
Not wishing to derail but as someone who spent 3 years of their life on political history I would suggest that one should look at political ideology as a clock face. The absolute liberals are at 6 o'clock. The Communists and the Nazis at 5 past and 5 to the hour respectively.
If by that you mean that they are both at the extremes, but in effect close together simultaneously I would agree with you.In economic matters "an inherent aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigisme,[4] meaning an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence over investment, as opposed to having a merely regulatory role. In general, apart from the nationalizations of some industries, fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state",
Which is more similar to Communism than Liberalism.
Communist regimes have also been responsible for extermination of minorities from the USSR to Cambodia.
Those Communists believing in "Socialism in one country" have more in common with Fascism than any other party.
Both systems in their extreme forms end up with one party dominating, controlling every aspect of life, very open to corruption, with officials and a few others having lots of everything whilst everyone else makes do. Very little freedom of press in both systems, indeed very little freedom full stop.
I'm not saying the two systems are the same, but instead that the reality of living in one of those systems, on a day to day basis, is probably quite similar to living in the other in many ways
TTwiggy said:
I've had a read through that thread and I can understand why many people rounded on GTIR.
There's another thing that I noted however. About three posts in, someone mentions a 'need for security' to keep a 'certain section of society' from causing damage to the memorial.
This is, I feel, pertinent, as when people ask how the holocaust could happen, it's generally agreed that the first step is to remove people's individuality by grouping them together as 'they'. Then you just need to demonise 'them' and you're on your way to mass extermination.
I would also point out that if there is a need for security at a memorial then we really have failed in educating at least 3 generations on the holocaust!There's another thing that I noted however. About three posts in, someone mentions a 'need for security' to keep a 'certain section of society' from causing damage to the memorial.
This is, I feel, pertinent, as when people ask how the holocaust could happen, it's generally agreed that the first step is to remove people's individuality by grouping them together as 'they'. Then you just need to demonise 'them' and you're on your way to mass extermination.
Grumfutock said:
TTwiggy said:
I've had a read through that thread and I can understand why many people rounded on GTIR.
There's another thing that I noted however. About three posts in, someone mentions a 'need for security' to keep a 'certain section of society' from causing damage to the memorial.
This is, I feel, pertinent, as when people ask how the holocaust could happen, it's generally agreed that the first step is to remove people's individuality by grouping them together as 'they'. Then you just need to demonise 'them' and you're on your way to mass extermination.
I would also point out that if there is a need for security at a memorial then we really have failed in educating at least 3 generations on the holocaust!There's another thing that I noted however. About three posts in, someone mentions a 'need for security' to keep a 'certain section of society' from causing damage to the memorial.
This is, I feel, pertinent, as when people ask how the holocaust could happen, it's generally agreed that the first step is to remove people's individuality by grouping them together as 'they'. Then you just need to demonise 'them' and you're on your way to mass extermination.
I grew up in east London, in what nowadays would be called a multi-cultural area but then was just a dumping ground. I went to school with a lot of Jews and had Jews as mates. It was not something I noticed, nor did anyone. I had a close friend who was Jewish and his parent celebrated Christmas, but with odd decorations.
Whether Jews or not, everyone knew a lot about the death camps. There were many books on the subject 'doing the rounds'. The film of Anne Frank - well worth sourcing the original - was the first real horror film I saw and the unusual ending made me look into what came next sort of thing.
There was a certain anti-Jewish minority. The very odd Diana Mosley, Ozzy's hubby, although she didn't seem to think so, wrote flyers that were distributed into the east end in the early 50s that became almost funny given the ludicrous nature of the content. But there was less that, for instance, that aimed at blacks and even the Irish.
There was a feeling that hating Jews, or even prejudice against them, made you rather odd and to be pitied. My father had a colleague from his army days who went all through the war with him and then was tortured and killed by the Jewish terrorists in soon to be Israel, but still he blamed the perpetrators and not their fellow Jews.
The expectation was that anti-semitism would just die out in a few years and, from my experience, this more or less came about. It seems very sad that it seems to have returned.
The death camps should remain as a reminder. Indeed, the German attitude to their past crimes is a positive. Much better than some other countries. I support the way the term nazi is used rather than Germans, despite the arguments that could be made against it.
What we need to ensure is that the same thing does not ever happen again. No one race or group should be blamed for financial problems and vilified by ambitious politicians. It must not be encouraged by a compliant press.
Before the war there was a significant minority in the country which wanted to be part of Hitler's Europe. It went across all classes and incomes.
Whether Jews or not, everyone knew a lot about the death camps. There were many books on the subject 'doing the rounds'. The film of Anne Frank - well worth sourcing the original - was the first real horror film I saw and the unusual ending made me look into what came next sort of thing.
There was a certain anti-Jewish minority. The very odd Diana Mosley, Ozzy's hubby, although she didn't seem to think so, wrote flyers that were distributed into the east end in the early 50s that became almost funny given the ludicrous nature of the content. But there was less that, for instance, that aimed at blacks and even the Irish.
There was a feeling that hating Jews, or even prejudice against them, made you rather odd and to be pitied. My father had a colleague from his army days who went all through the war with him and then was tortured and killed by the Jewish terrorists in soon to be Israel, but still he blamed the perpetrators and not their fellow Jews.
The expectation was that anti-semitism would just die out in a few years and, from my experience, this more or less came about. It seems very sad that it seems to have returned.
The death camps should remain as a reminder. Indeed, the German attitude to their past crimes is a positive. Much better than some other countries. I support the way the term nazi is used rather than Germans, despite the arguments that could be made against it.
What we need to ensure is that the same thing does not ever happen again. No one race or group should be blamed for financial problems and vilified by ambitious politicians. It must not be encouraged by a compliant press.
Before the war there was a significant minority in the country which wanted to be part of Hitler's Europe. It went across all classes and incomes.
schmunk said:
Not to be a spelling, erm, 'tyrant', but Auswitch isn't anyone's spelling of Auschwitz / Oswiecim, except the author of that website, probably because http://www.auschwitztours.com/ was already taken...
A simple google search will show you it is not just him.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff