Discussion
It wasn’t so long ago that a modern country took it upon themselves to murders millions of people for an ideology.
When I see the pictures of children who were sent to their deaths I try to imagine what that would have been like.
I see myself, my wife, my son and my daughter. If we survived the journey my children and wife would be gassed then burned, I would be worked and killed, if I was unfortunate I would survive.
What did I do wrong? Nothing, but all that I knew and loved is gone because someone I don’t know wants it that way.
This was a reality for millions of people.
It angers me greatly, it makes me sick that this happened, I hate that it happened. It needs to be remembered and not forgotten.
As an aside, my mother was left in Austria with her grandparents. My mum’s mother left for England to start a new life after living under Nazi rule, seeing her friends disappear and coping with the death of her husband, my grandfather who was in the Luftwaffe.
When I see the pictures of children who were sent to their deaths I try to imagine what that would have been like.
I see myself, my wife, my son and my daughter. If we survived the journey my children and wife would be gassed then burned, I would be worked and killed, if I was unfortunate I would survive.
What did I do wrong? Nothing, but all that I knew and loved is gone because someone I don’t know wants it that way.
This was a reality for millions of people.
It angers me greatly, it makes me sick that this happened, I hate that it happened. It needs to be remembered and not forgotten.
As an aside, my mother was left in Austria with her grandparents. My mum’s mother left for England to start a new life after living under Nazi rule, seeing her friends disappear and coping with the death of her husband, my grandfather who was in the Luftwaffe.
I was reading about Auschwitz on wiki yesterday after the news mentioned it. So harrowing and upsetting just reading about it - what must it be like visiting it and realising what went on there?
One thing I was thinking about afterwards, is how it got to that stage. Hitler didn't decide overnight to follow this path, and it must have been some progression that happened over a period of time.. How did it all start then? Some nationalism? Blaming a group of people for the countries woes?
One thing I was thinking about afterwards, is how it got to that stage. Hitler didn't decide overnight to follow this path, and it must have been some progression that happened over a period of time.. How did it all start then? Some nationalism? Blaming a group of people for the countries woes?
schmunk said:
FourWheelDrift said:
A simple google search will show you it is not just him.
OK, you're right, there are other people who can't spell / won't spell. It's still not the correct name of a real place, in any (non-made-up) language.Although thoroughly unpleasant to watch, this documentary, which aired on Channel4 earlier in the week, will certainly put life into perspective.
I believe it is available for another 3-4 weeks on 4oD.
Watch with caution; it shows the original footage of those that liberated the camps - it is heartbreaking.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/holocaust-night...
I believe it is available for another 3-4 weeks on 4oD.
Watch with caution; it shows the original footage of those that liberated the camps - it is heartbreaking.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/holocaust-night...
s1962a said:
I was reading about Auschwitz on wiki yesterday after the news mentioned it. So harrowing and upsetting just reading about it - what must it be like visiting it and realising what went on there?
One thing I was thinking about afterwards, is how it got to that stage. Hitler didn't decide overnight to follow this path, and it must have been some progression that happened over a period of time.. How did it all start then? Some nationalism? Blaming a group of people for the countries woes?
It was the Wansee Conference of 1942 that spawned the 'final solution', but in terms of how they got there, it was lumping a group of people together and then blaming them for everything from Germany's loss in WWI to the economic depression of the 1920s and 30s. Plus much in between.One thing I was thinking about afterwards, is how it got to that stage. Hitler didn't decide overnight to follow this path, and it must have been some progression that happened over a period of time.. How did it all start then? Some nationalism? Blaming a group of people for the countries woes?
There's a 'guide' somewhere to how atrocities like this can happen. It's essentially all about removing any idea of people as individuals and instead making 'them' a group and making that group different to 'us'.
A lesson from history, which is, IMHO, very pertinent today with the move by some elements to lump all Muslims together as the 'bogeymen du jour'.
There's been a few people asking how people could do that sort of thing to each other. The sad thing is we're hard-wired that way. If people want to understand that part of the human condition a little better have a listen to this.
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/28/175609678/the-violen...
If you don't have time to listen to the whole TED radio show listen to the Phil Zimbardo section - he of the Harvard Prison Experiment fame.
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/28/175609678/the-violen...
If you don't have time to listen to the whole TED radio show listen to the Phil Zimbardo section - he of the Harvard Prison Experiment fame.
DonnyMac said:
Although thoroughly unpleasant to watch, this documentary, which aired on Channel4 earlier in the week, will certainly put life into perspective.
I believe it is available for another 3-4 weeks on 4oD.
Watch with caution; it shows the original footage of those that liberated the camps - it is heartbreaking.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/holocaust-night...
It was very harrowing, and that from somebody who has visited Auschwitz...I believe it is available for another 3-4 weeks on 4oD.
Watch with caution; it shows the original footage of those that liberated the camps - it is heartbreaking.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/holocaust-night...
TTwiggy said:
It was the Wansee Conference of 1942 that spawned the 'final solution', but in terms of how they got there, it was lumping a group of people together and then blaming them for everything from Germany's loss in WWI to the economic depression of the 1920s and 30s. Plus much in between.
There's a 'guide' somewhere to how atrocities like this can happen. It's essentially all about removing any idea of people as individuals and instead making 'them' a group and making that group different to 'us'.
A lesson from history, which is, IMHO, very pertinent today with the move by some elements to lump all Muslims together as the 'bogeymen du jour'.
A very superficial reading of history IMO and ignores the fact that the Germans were nearly as brutal with other peoples they regarded as racial inferiors, like the Slavs.There's a 'guide' somewhere to how atrocities like this can happen. It's essentially all about removing any idea of people as individuals and instead making 'them' a group and making that group different to 'us'.
A lesson from history, which is, IMHO, very pertinent today with the move by some elements to lump all Muslims together as the 'bogeymen du jour'.
To look at the history of the atrocities committed in the second world war, one must look at the German national character of the early twentieth century (not modern Germans I would add who have mostly faced up to their past). The Nazis were not some alien invasion from Mars but were a concentrated form of a broad strain of German opinion. From the belief in racial superiority over the Slavs and the desirability of a "race war" with them, to extreme militarism, to anti-Semitism.
It is those who would misuse history that would suggest we should not confront extremists with values inimical to western civilisation if they have a different skin colour to our own. The Nazis would have felt quite at home with ISIS.
Oilchange said:
JagLover said:
The Nazis would have felt quite at home with ISIS.
...and then probably exterminated them for being different/inferior/whatever
...and then probably exterminated them for being different/inferior/whatever
In both world wars the Germans tried to harness Islam for their efforts. In the first the Ottomans issued a Jihad in aid of the Axis cause.
In the second the Germans separated out Muslims captured among Soviet soldiers and tried to recruit them to the Nazi cause, by providing Imans and so forth. I think there was also an SS division/regiment made up entirely of Bosnian Muslims.
s1962a said:
Hitler didn't decide overnight to follow this path, and it must have been some progression that happened over a period of time. How did it all start then? Some nationalism? Blaming a group of people for the countries woes?
You are quite right to ask that question. Mr H and his gang did not invent the subject; they channelled a general public feeling into action.If you google "why did Hitler persecute the jews" you will find all the relevant background. It is apparent that if such material were set out in this thread various participants would boil over with indignation. So have a look at the history for yourself.
JagLover said:
Doubtful
In both world wars the Germans tried to harness Islam for their efforts. In the first the Ottomans issued a Jihad in aid of the Axis cause.
In the second the Germans separated out Muslims captured among Soviet soldiers and tried to recruit them to the Nazi cause, by providing Imans and so forth. I think there was also an SS division/regiment made up entirely of Bosnian Muslims.
Croatian actually. 13th SS Mountain Div. There was also the Azerbaijani Legion that went on to be part of the 162nd Turkoman Division and the Arabisches Freiheitkorps. These were inspected and approved by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who fully supported and approved of the Jewish persecution. A great shame he escaped justice at the end of the war. In both world wars the Germans tried to harness Islam for their efforts. In the first the Ottomans issued a Jihad in aid of the Axis cause.
In the second the Germans separated out Muslims captured among Soviet soldiers and tried to recruit them to the Nazi cause, by providing Imans and so forth. I think there was also an SS division/regiment made up entirely of Bosnian Muslims.
But shhhhh we mustn't mention anything about them as that would be wrong and most likely racist.
knitware said:
I try to imagine what that would have been like.
....
It angers me greatly, it makes me sick that this happened, I hate that it happened. It needs to be remembered and not forgotten.
Me too. Especially the stories from those who were young children, and were separated from their parents on arrival at a camp. I imagine my own children in that situation.....
It angers me greatly, it makes me sick that this happened, I hate that it happened. It needs to be remembered and not forgotten.
I also wonder what it was like being an average German at the time, aware of what was going on for all those years, but knowing the consequences of standing up to it. I would like to think I would have done something. But I don't think I would :-(
In a way, it makes me feel very guilty about what is happening now in North Korea. We all know that there are camps there, you can even see them on google maps! We know that people are being tortured and killed, separated from their young children, etc. but we are turning a blind eye.
JagLover said:
Oilchange said:
JagLover said:
The Nazis would have felt quite at home with ISIS.
...and then probably exterminated them for being different/inferior/whatever
...and then probably exterminated them for being different/inferior/whatever
In both world wars the Germans tried to harness Islam for their efforts. In the first the Ottomans issued a Jihad in aid of the Axis cause.
In the second the Germans separated out Muslims captured among Soviet soldiers and tried to recruit them to the Nazi cause, by providing Imans and so forth. I think there was also an SS division/regiment made up entirely of Bosnian Muslims.
I have posted this before.
We have a villa in a urbanisation in the algarve.
Just to paint the scene- The urbanisation is large grounds villas with prices from €500k plus (even reccession years). Traditional gates are green painted iron type to stone boundary wall and hedges.
Lovely area.
A couple of years ago the suspected german new owners of a villa near to ours started work on the gates..... The traditional green 6ft max high gates were replaced with exceptionally heavy, very solid and very sinister dark brown solid wood gates I would guess 18ft high. Totally out of place......They bring hairs out on the back of your neck.
To our horror once finished two large nazi swastika embossed markings were added to each door.
To make matters worse - to the tops of the gates they have alcoves. In these recesses stands a canister in each.
After a few times walking past I am now 90% certain what these canisters are.......
We have to drive past everytime to get out the village and back past again to get home....
We all know there are still many sick people around...........
We have a villa in a urbanisation in the algarve.
Just to paint the scene- The urbanisation is large grounds villas with prices from €500k plus (even reccession years). Traditional gates are green painted iron type to stone boundary wall and hedges.
Lovely area.
A couple of years ago the suspected german new owners of a villa near to ours started work on the gates..... The traditional green 6ft max high gates were replaced with exceptionally heavy, very solid and very sinister dark brown solid wood gates I would guess 18ft high. Totally out of place......They bring hairs out on the back of your neck.
To our horror once finished two large nazi swastika embossed markings were added to each door.
To make matters worse - to the tops of the gates they have alcoves. In these recesses stands a canister in each.
After a few times walking past I am now 90% certain what these canisters are.......
We have to drive past everytime to get out the village and back past again to get home....
We all know there are still many sick people around...........
Edited by craig7l on Wednesday 28th January 22:16
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