Presumption of innocence (Rape)
Discussion
Dealt with the matter differently how? It seems a complaint was made, you were arrested, spent time in a cell, interviewed, the case was presented to the CPS and they made the decision to pursue it.
Just like what happens when anyone else is ever arrested. Of course, we only have your opinion that it was a spurious complaint and very scant details on what actually happened so who knows.
Just like what happens when anyone else is ever arrested. Of course, we only have your opinion that it was a spurious complaint and very scant details on what actually happened so who knows.
They could have told her to stop being such a stupid vindictive b
h as her manufactured complaint will get nowhere if it goes to court no matter how much she lies or manipulates the truth, even if it's backed up by falsehoods from her friend. 
However, my experience has shown me that it's definitely a biased system once an allegation is made by a female against a male.
h as her manufactured complaint will get nowhere if it goes to court no matter how much she lies or manipulates the truth, even if it's backed up by falsehoods from her friend. However, my experience has shown me that it's definitely a biased system once an allegation is made by a female against a male.
Let's be honest here, you're hardly going to be the most impartial person to decide on whether a complaint is spurious or not. I mean, I've been arrested a few times and I think those complaints were spurious as well. I was totally innocent. Totally. As were all the other people in the cells those nights. And everyone I was on community service with.
Dr Jekyll said:
It is perfectly possible to have respect for women and still be curious as to how exactly I'm supposed to prove consent. A question that is still being conspicuously evaded.
Instead of worrying about how you'll prove consent, just concentrate on the old adage that if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.Raise your bar a little and you'll have little cause to worry.
Oakey said:
Let's be honest here, you're hardly going to be the most impartial person to decide on whether a complaint is spurious or not. I mean, I've been arrested a few times and I think those complaints were spurious as well. I was totally innocent. Totally. As were all the other people in the cells those nights. And everyone I was on community service with.
I know someone who went to jail for something they didn't do. They didn't steal a reliable getaway car. Oakey said:
Let's be honest here, you're hardly going to be the most impartial person to decide on whether a complaint is spurious or not. I mean, I've been arrested a few times and I think those complaints were spurious as well. I was totally innocent. Totally. As were all the other people in the cells those nights. And everyone I was on community service with.
The magistrate seemed to agree with the CPS, my solicitor and with me.Thankfully it wasn't a high profile case so there was zero stigma from those who consider an allegation to be proof, but you can probably understand why I view the whole process as very one-sided. Hence why I am dubious about anything which makes it seem like the accused is having their very basic rights eroded.
Impasse said:
The magistrate seemed to agree with the CPS, my solicitor and with me.
Thankfully it wasn't a high profile case so there was zero stigma from those who consider an allegation to be proof, but you can probably understand why I view the whole process as very one-sided. Hence why I am dubious about anything which makes it seem like the accused is having their very basic rights eroded.
You're ignoring the point that it's the CPS who decide what cases go to court to begin with, not the police. If you have an issue it lies with them. Regardless of that, you were treated no differently to anyone else that is arrested. Everyone spends hours in a cell and gets treated like crap. That a woman made the complaint had no bearing on how you were treated. Thankfully it wasn't a high profile case so there was zero stigma from those who consider an allegation to be proof, but you can probably understand why I view the whole process as very one-sided. Hence why I am dubious about anything which makes it seem like the accused is having their very basic rights eroded.
You're also not the first person to have a case dropped once it gets to court either, guess what, some of them even did what they're accused of!
Oakey said:
You're ignoring the point that it's the CPS who decide what cases go to court to begin with, not the police. If you have an issue it lies with them. Regardless of that, you were treated no differently to anyone else that is arrested. Everyone spends hours in a cell and gets treated like crap. That a woman made the complaint had no bearing on how you were treated.
I'd like to believe that but I'm not that naïve. It's incredibly one sided once an allegation has been made. You can't hear yourself protesting your innocence for the sound of white armour being donned by those involved.Oh and the police have options available before referring anything to the CPS.
Impasse said:
I'd like to believe that but I'm not that naïve. It's incredibly one sided once an allegation has been made. You can't hear yourself protesting your innocence for the sound of white armour being donned by those involved.
Oh and the police have options available before referring anything to the CPS.
Well of course you feel that way. That's how everyone who ever gets arrested feels! The fact is you went through the same process everyone else who is arrested goes through, only you feel you should have been treated differently. But that's okay, so does everyone else!Oh and the police have options available before referring anything to the CPS.
And you haven't elaborated on the nature of the complaint so who knows what options were available.
Hypothetical scenario that might answer the questions above :
I take a girl back to my place. Neither of us has consumed an excessive amount of alcohol. I put Barry White on the stereo, and dim the lights. We get a bit frisky on the sofa. The girl doesn't say a word. We proceed further and have sex. Plenty of grunting, but still she doesn't say any actual words. When finished, we get dressed and carry on chatting, seemingly slightly embarrassed.
She did NOT say "yes" at any time, but equally she did not SAY "no" at any time.
The next day there is a knock at my door and I am accused of rape - the accuser states the facts exactly as above, but points to the absence of the spoken "yes" as being lack of consent.
Would the CPS prosecute ? My reading of the legal guidance above is that I have a cast iron defence. Correct?
I take a girl back to my place. Neither of us has consumed an excessive amount of alcohol. I put Barry White on the stereo, and dim the lights. We get a bit frisky on the sofa. The girl doesn't say a word. We proceed further and have sex. Plenty of grunting, but still she doesn't say any actual words. When finished, we get dressed and carry on chatting, seemingly slightly embarrassed.
She did NOT say "yes" at any time, but equally she did not SAY "no" at any time.
The next day there is a knock at my door and I am accused of rape - the accuser states the facts exactly as above, but points to the absence of the spoken "yes" as being lack of consent.
Would the CPS prosecute ? My reading of the legal guidance above is that I have a cast iron defence. Correct?
Impasse,
I think you made the same mistake I did. In my naive youth believing the police were there to find out the truth and get justice. In reality it's all about performance and arrest figures.
I was arrested for criminal damage after a road rage incident (bike). Allegedly sticking my knee slider into the side of a car whilst riding past
. My knees aren't strong at the best of times so that was quite a ridiculous claim. The accuser drove straight to the police station and gave a statement/description of me, tall white guy, leathers, knee slider etc. Only problem with that is I wasn't wearing leathers or knee sliders, oh and I'm not white either.
Subsequently ar court found out as the investigating officer had such a busy night she never bothered walking out to the car park to see this supposed damage.
Took the provided solicitor as I couldn't afford my own representation. Why would i need It if i'm innocent.
Guilty.
Wanted to appeal but said solicitor very strongly advised against it. Still annoys me now but not much I can do about it.
Oh, after several months of harassment by the accuser police finally arrested him and it went to court. I provided a mobile phone audio recording file and transcript of the death threats he had made by phone (50+ yr old man btw!) but it got thrown out as I wouldn't hand over my mobile phone to the defence.
Lesson learned, get the best solicitor you can even if you have to sell a kidney.
Seen the officer once or twice since and she always has a very embarrassed and guilty look on her face.
I think you made the same mistake I did. In my naive youth believing the police were there to find out the truth and get justice. In reality it's all about performance and arrest figures.
I was arrested for criminal damage after a road rage incident (bike). Allegedly sticking my knee slider into the side of a car whilst riding past
. My knees aren't strong at the best of times so that was quite a ridiculous claim. The accuser drove straight to the police station and gave a statement/description of me, tall white guy, leathers, knee slider etc. Only problem with that is I wasn't wearing leathers or knee sliders, oh and I'm not white either.Subsequently ar court found out as the investigating officer had such a busy night she never bothered walking out to the car park to see this supposed damage.
Took the provided solicitor as I couldn't afford my own representation. Why would i need It if i'm innocent.
Guilty.
Wanted to appeal but said solicitor very strongly advised against it. Still annoys me now but not much I can do about it.Oh, after several months of harassment by the accuser police finally arrested him and it went to court. I provided a mobile phone audio recording file and transcript of the death threats he had made by phone (50+ yr old man btw!) but it got thrown out as I wouldn't hand over my mobile phone to the defence.
Lesson learned, get the best solicitor you can even if you have to sell a kidney.
Seen the officer once or twice since and she always has a very embarrassed and guilty look on her face.
Randy Winkman said:
I agree with the 3 groups, PH is a bit like that - well done for taking the time to post them. And as for the final point, I do wonder if some people on here have any female friends/relatives they care about. Because their undue (in my opinion) their concern about some hypothetical situation where they are falsely accused of rape suggests not.
That is totally illogical. Why should concern about false accusations affect my female friends/relatives? I can assure you that most women are as enraged as men by the existence of false rape allegations.Are you suggesting that women benefit in some way from innocent men being imprisoned for rape, and therefore insisting on proof is somehow anti-woman?
Dr Jekyll said:
Randy Winkman said:
I agree with the 3 groups, PH is a bit like that - well done for taking the time to post them. And as for the final point, I do wonder if some people on here have any female friends/relatives they care about. Because their undue (in my opinion) their concern about some hypothetical situation where they are falsely accused of rape suggests not.
That is totally illogical. Why should concern about false accusations affect my female friends/relatives? I can assure you that most women are as enraged as men by the existence of false rape allegations.Are you suggesting that women benefit in some way from innocent men being imprisoned for rape, and therefore insisting on proof is somehow anti-woman?
My final point, and this is where I risk losing you and many other PHers, is that I wonder if internet porn is having a negative effect on how many men see women from a sexual perspective?
Randy Winkman said:
"Why are some men on PH so concerned about the issue of false allegations? Surely a much bigger concern for most people in relation to this issue is the safety of their female friends/relatives. I wonder of they have any?"
Concerned partly because false allegations undermine efforts to deal with the genuinely guilty. Of course women's safety is an even bigger concern, but false allegations are still a concern.Terrorism is a bigger concern than false allegations of terrorism, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if a few innocents are convicted.
pablo said:
What a complete load of ste. If Judges had not been so lenient in the past, there wouldnt be this problem today. In 1990 Judge Raymond Dean used these words when closing a case “As the gentlemen on the jury will understand, when a woman says no she doesn’t always mean it.” In the same trial, he claimed: “Men can’t turn their emotions on and off like a tap like some women can.” The jury acquitted the property consultant of rape.
In June 1993 – Judge Ian Starforth Hill, describing the eight-year-old victim of an attempted rape, said he was led to believe “she was not entirely an angel herself”. Her attacker received two years’ probation for attempted unlawful intercourse at Winchester Crown Court.
Furthremore In December 1988 – Judge Sir Harold Cassel QC refused to jail an ex-policeman for indecently assaulting his 12-year-old stepdaughter, who had learning difficulties. He said the man was driven to assault the girl because his wife’s pregnancy had dimmed her sexual appetite, causing “considerable problems for a healthy young husband”
Meannwhile its good to see things have changed now we are in January 2015.... A Barrister and judge are subject to separate inquiries after it emerged a 13-year-old sex attack victim was labelled “predatory” and “sexually experienced”. Robert Colover made the comments as prosecutor in the case of paedophile Neil Wilson, 41 – who ultimately walked from court with an eight-month suspended sentence after admitting he had engaged in sexual activity with the girl at his home. Judge Nigel Peters, QC, said he took into account that the girl looked and behaved older than she was when he decided Wilson’s punishment.
Some of the comments here really are shameful.
Some dreadful comments to be sure but none of the cases are what is being debated here which is the retrospective withdrawal of consent on grounds of inebriation.te. If Judges had not been so lenient in the past, there wouldnt be this problem today. In 1990 Judge Raymond Dean used these words when closing a case “As the gentlemen on the jury will understand, when a woman says no she doesn’t always mean it.” In the same trial, he claimed: “Men can’t turn their emotions on and off like a tap like some women can.” The jury acquitted the property consultant of rape.In June 1993 – Judge Ian Starforth Hill, describing the eight-year-old victim of an attempted rape, said he was led to believe “she was not entirely an angel herself”. Her attacker received two years’ probation for attempted unlawful intercourse at Winchester Crown Court.
Furthremore In December 1988 – Judge Sir Harold Cassel QC refused to jail an ex-policeman for indecently assaulting his 12-year-old stepdaughter, who had learning difficulties. He said the man was driven to assault the girl because his wife’s pregnancy had dimmed her sexual appetite, causing “considerable problems for a healthy young husband”
Meannwhile its good to see things have changed now we are in January 2015.... A Barrister and judge are subject to separate inquiries after it emerged a 13-year-old sex attack victim was labelled “predatory” and “sexually experienced”. Robert Colover made the comments as prosecutor in the case of paedophile Neil Wilson, 41 – who ultimately walked from court with an eight-month suspended sentence after admitting he had engaged in sexual activity with the girl at his home. Judge Nigel Peters, QC, said he took into account that the girl looked and behaved older than she was when he decided Wilson’s punishment.
Some of the comments here really are shameful.
Everyone is I'm sure happy for genuine rapists to be locked up for a long time. Less happy for a young man to be put away for 5 years because a girl claims she must not have consented the previous night but drank too much to be sure.
It may not suit many people's quasi-Victorian notions of morality but millions of young men and women go out "on the pull" on your average Friday & Saturday night and in most cases copious amounts of alcohol is consumed.
The whole date "rape" drug scare is so overhyped because women are far more likely than men to experience "blackouts" at the same level of alcohol consumption. Even at the same body weight women will typically have a blood alcohol reading 30% higher and of course typically they are not the same body weight but a few stone lighter.
For those who appear to need further education on blackouts.
http://www.hercampus.com/health/physical-health/bl...
The issue is not "evil" men taking advantage of unconscious females. But a man pulling a woman who is capable of conversation and freely giving consent but has little or no memory of what happened the next day.
JagLover said:
Some dreadful comments to be sure but none of the cases are what is being debated here which is the retrospective withdrawal of consent on grounds of inebriation.
Everyone is I'm sure happy for genuine rapists to be locked up for a long time. Less happy for a young man to be put away for 5 years because a girl claims she must not have consented the previous night but drank too much to be sure.
It may not suit many people's quasi-Victorian notions of morality but millions of young men and women go out "on the pull" on your average Friday & Saturday night and in most cases copious amounts of alcohol is consumed.
The whole date "rape" drug scare is so overhyped because women are far more likely than men to experience "blackouts" at the same level of alcohol consumption. Even at the same body weight women will typically have a blood alcohol reading 30% higher and of course typically they are not the same body weight but a few stone lighter.
For those who appear to need further education on blackouts.
http://www.hercampus.com/health/physical-health/bl...
The issue is not "evil" men taking advantage of unconscious females. But a man pulling a woman who is capable of conversation and freely giving consent but has little or no memory of what happened the next day.
For two years I ran ID parades for my force, and on occasion others, scheduling about 6 per day with an occasional one in the evening or of a weekend.Everyone is I'm sure happy for genuine rapists to be locked up for a long time. Less happy for a young man to be put away for 5 years because a girl claims she must not have consented the previous night but drank too much to be sure.
It may not suit many people's quasi-Victorian notions of morality but millions of young men and women go out "on the pull" on your average Friday & Saturday night and in most cases copious amounts of alcohol is consumed.
The whole date "rape" drug scare is so overhyped because women are far more likely than men to experience "blackouts" at the same level of alcohol consumption. Even at the same body weight women will typically have a blood alcohol reading 30% higher and of course typically they are not the same body weight but a few stone lighter.
For those who appear to need further education on blackouts.
http://www.hercampus.com/health/physical-health/bl...
The issue is not "evil" men taking advantage of unconscious females. But a man pulling a woman who is capable of conversation and freely giving consent but has little or no memory of what happened the next day.
I kept details of types of offences. I ran, on average, a fraction less than 3 rape/serious sexual crime parades a week, once running 3 in one day. I had to review the nature of the offence in order to phrase the questions and to see if special facilities were required. It doesn't take a lot of working out to calculate the number of rape/serious sexual offences I had a fairly good knowledge of.
I don't recognise your description of the inebriated woman changing her mind. Not in 300 scheduled parades.
I do know of cases where women have been plied with alcohol for the sole reason of rendering them incapable of making a decision. Or in other words, raped.
Someone can't retrospectively withdraw consent. What they can claim is that they either didn't give it in the first place and didn't do anything to promote the idea, or that at the time they weren't in a position to be able to say no (through unconsciousness due to drink/drug impairment or some other reason for being incapacitated).
allergictocheese said:
Someone can't retrospectively withdraw consent. What they can claim is that they either didn't give it in the first place and didn't do anything to promote the idea, or that at the time they weren't in a position to be able to say no (through unconsciousness due to drink/drug impairment or some other reason for being incapacitated).
And if they were not unconscious due to alcohol but simply cannot remember having given consent?Hence why the best way of describing these cases is retrospective withdrawal of consent.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff